An unexpected entanglement between Heated Rivalry breakout star Hudson Williams and Playwrights Canada Press’ Yaga has led the Canadian independent press to its busiest season since it started operations in 1984. We talked to Annie Gibson about how they’ve handled the increase in sales, how they reach readers beyond Canadian borders, their plans for the future, and more.

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Transcript

Nataly Alarcón: Hello, everyone. And welcome to the BookNet Canada podcast. I am Nataly Alarcón, your host for this episode. The TV adaptation of Rachel Reid's Heated Rivalry has taken the internet and the romance world by storm. Its success doesn't end with the popularity of the show or the success in sales of the book series. Instead, the TV adaptation stars Hudson Williams and Connor Storrie are riding the wave of fame and bringing the heat to unexpected places. And, no, I'm not talking about the actors carrying the Olympic flame at the Winter Olympics, Milano Cortina 2026, or at the "do the leg thing" moment Hudson Williams shared with Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney at the Primetime 2026 red carpet in Ottawa.

Today, my guest, Annie Gibson, Publisher at Playwrights Canada Press will attest to how an unexpected entanglement between Heated Rivalry breakout star Hudson Williams and one of their titles has led to one of their busiest seasons as a playwright publisher.

Welcome to the BookNet Canada podcast, Annie. I've been looking forward to this interview. Thank you for taking the time to chat with me.

Annie Gibson: Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited to be here.

Nataly: Yay. So, let's start with a little bit of context. So, Annie, can you please tell us a little bit about yourself, your journey in the industry, and the role that you play at Playwrights Canada Press?

Annie: For sure. I am the Publisher at Playwrights Canada Press. And I've had sort of a wild, but not wild journey in the industry. I got hired by Playwrights Canada Press straight out of university kind of by fluke. My mother made me walk in and hand in my resume. And I told her that nobody gets jobs that way. And just by happenstance, the publisher was standing at the door, talking to the only other staff member. And they had a job opening, but hadn't posted it yet. So, I think I was the only applicant and, lo and behold, got the job.

So, yeah. I started there straight out of university. I was the customer service person. We did our own distribution. So, I filled all the orders and then, you know, spent a few years there. And then the publisher had been very upfront with me that she was going to retire, and when it came to finding a new publisher, to take over for her. The board hired somebody who lived outside of Canada and his immigration paperwork never came through. He was never able to get a work in Canada permit. So, the board, after a year, had to go back to the drawing board.

And I'd been there several years. And my predecessor, Angela, sort of... I just found this out. Apparently, one night, she and the president of the board were sort of in the office, you know, sitting there going, oh, I don't know what we're going to do. We don't want to do the whole search party or search committee again. And apparently, Angela just sort of nodded at me and was like, "What about Annie?" I was all of 25. Yeah. I've been publisher since 2008. And I like to think I've proven myself.

Nataly: I love this story. And I love how maybe your mom still, to this day, is probably like, well, I was right.

Annie: Right? She'll never let me live it down. Never let me live it down.

Nataly: I love this. So, okay. Let's get into it. So, let's talk about the title in question that I mentioned in our introduction. So, for those who may be out of the loop, Yaga, a book by Canadian actress, playwright, and theatre director Kat Sandler, originally published in 2023 by Playwrights Canada, was picked up for a book/stage-to-screen adaptation produced by Front Street Pictures and Blink49 Studios for Crave. So, first of all, congratulations, Annie. This is huge. My goodness. I was so excited when I read about it. Can we go back in time and talk about how this book ended up on your desk? What's the story behind the story?

Annie: I mean, Kat Sandler, the author, we've...by that point, we'd published several of her books. We knew her writing, we knew her style. We knew how she liked to work. And as a director, she's very precise, not only with language and dialogue, but with things like stage directions. So, when Yaga was first premiered, we were like, oh, wow, this is going to be a great book. This is going to be a great show. And that's one of the steps in the publishing process for plays is it really needs a stage production first before we'll publish it. And in part, that acts like the substantive edit. It's really like the actors and director getting behind it, finessing things.

Often, playwrights are writing things and rewriting all throughout the production. They may take audience or reviewer feedback into account if they're sort of like, oh, wow, everybody hates this character. What can I do to make them more likable or that kind of thing? It's interesting because I feel like it's...the stage production for, say, a novelist, it would be like throwing a somewhat rough draft to the public and being like, okay, gang, what do you think? But playwrights, it's how the process goes. It's not a rough draft. There's been days or months or years of development by the time they get to the production stage. So, really, the production is just really doing those finesse bits.

And the play, as far as I know, was really well-received when it was produced first. I believe that was at Toronto's Tarragon Theatre, which has had a nice long-standing relationship with the author. I think they give her the space to create in the way she would like to create and collaborate with the actors. And I mean, the production was phenomenal. The cast they had was so good. And I don't want to give things away, but it... Because the world of the book and the play is populated by this whole cast of characters. There's 10 or 15 characters running throughout, but they did it with three actors. So, each actor was playing multiple roles. And I understand that will be slightly different in the TV series, but I think not entirely different. But that's just the plot. And I don't want to tell you the plot or give away the ending, I should say.

Nataly: No spoilers, please. This is a spoiler-free zone. That is so interesting. I had no idea. So, it's playwright, theatre production, and then comes the book. Huh.

Annie: Yeah. We feel our job as a publisher is mainly making a playwright script ready for readers. So, I mean, often when playwrights are writing, they're writing for actors. So, there's a whole unique set of punctuation that goes along with that. Actors are taught that a comma is a breath or a pause. Whereas for a reader, you're not sort of taking a beat every time there's a comma. So, we're often sort of taking that and being like, we need to rewrite this just a little bit so readers understand what is happening.

And I find some playwrights are really unique with their stage directions. Some have no stage directions. They don't want to give you the world at all. They are going to let the next director, the next production take care of that. Other people are very specific with, you know, everything from what they want the characters to wear to where they want them to stand on the stage. And so, we try to work with the playwright to find a happy medium.

Nataly: It sounds fascinating to me. It sounds so exciting, and also super creative, the process, very enriching. I love that. So, let's talk...let's continue talking about Yaga. So, again, the book was published in 2023. So, we fast forward three years and the TV adaptation of Heated Rivalry enters the chat. The queer, steamy, sweet, sporty Canadian show is making the headlines everywhere. Hudson Williams, one of the show's breakout stars, rises to fame. Yaga gets picked up for adaptation. Hudson Williams is cast. The internet finds out. The book sells out. How did all of this unfold for you and your team? Were you expecting all this attention?

Annie: Nope. So, we knew that the book was being adapted into a TV series. We were super thrilled about that. You know, we've seen other shows the Crave network or streaming service platform has picked up before that have been adapted from books that are phenomenal. I'm thinking particularly, "Station Eleven" is a favourite one of mine. Although that might've been an HBO show. Anyways, I don't know. Great book, great adaptation.

And some of the playwrights we work with have also worked on shows. I'm thinking "Little Bird" that Hannah Moscovitch was doing. So, we knew there would be a really good thing come out of this. But often as happens with Canadian TV, sometimes it's a really big deal here in Canada, in the Canadian film industry. It does not reach further. And, yeah. So, having sort of a global superstar get attached to it, it was...and I mean, the rest of the cast is no joke either. Right? Carrie-Anne Moss is one of the main characters. That woman's face, she's going to be so good. I'm so excited. And then Noah Reid, who we all know and adore from Schitt's Creek.

But, yeah, I think it was the Hudson Williams that tipped things on the internet. And I think they announced that information at the right time. They could have announced the casting months before and maybe no one would have paid attention. It would have been like, oh, cool. Here's this TV show that's coming. But they were very smart. They sort of rode the Heated Rivalry wave. And it was interesting because I watched Heated Rivalry. Although I didn't know what it was at first. It was advertised to me on my TV just with an image. So, it's these two guys facing off on a hockey rink. And I thought it was just going to be a show about hockey. And I went into the office and I was like, yeah, why is everybody talking about this? Isn't it just like a hockey show? And my coworker was like, "No, Annie. It's porn. It's literal porn." I was like, wait, what are you talking about? So, then I had to go watch it.

I do understand how, yes, it is very steamy, but I would say... I mean, yeah, it's not that graphic, I guess, is the term compared to some things that are on TV regularly. But, yeah. I think it... Oh, yeah. It really touched a soft spot for us all, I think. And so, yeah. It was kind of impressive and amazing to just see how the internet was like, okay, cool, here's a new Hudson Williams project. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was the first project that he was attached to since Heated Rivalry blew up. There might've been some other things, but I wasn't paying attention to those as much.

But it was actually...it was a very sort of full circle moment because we found out, here's this Canadian actor in Heated Rivalry. We were talking about it with our staff and found out that one of our staff members' husbands was in a sketch comedy group with Hudson Williams back in Vancouver. Oh, now, I'm going to get it wrong, but I believe it's called the Smashed Potato Kids. I have not looked it up myself, but I suspect there's YouTube clips. So, others may enjoy that. I'm sure the internet has found it already because the internet gets excited. But, yeah. We had no idea of the sort of wave of interest that there would be in the book.

And I would say that, interestingly, we've had several big, I would say, sort of more international things happen with our work in the last couple of years. Sort of top of mind, we have a play called Sexual Misconduct of the Middle Classes. It's by a writer named Hannah Moscovitch, who I was talking about before. And she has gotten quite a lot of international acclaim. And I believe the show is currently being performed in New York with Hugh Jackman in one of the roles and... Right? I see your face. That's a big deal, you know?

So, we'd sort of seen this and seen the sales from it, too, which... It was popular. We have sold a lot of books. This is actually the second run that they're doing, which is amazing. I believe there's an Audible Theater — that's related to audible book — production. So, they're finding plays and producing them on stage and creating audio versions of them, which is all very exciting. I've lost my train of thought now.

Oh, yeah. I was just talking about the sort of exciting things when it comes to sales numbers. We saw what happened there with Sexual Misconduct. And then last... Actually, no. I guess it was earlier this year, possibly last fall. Oh, I'm bad with dates. One of our Canadian playwrights, Jordan Tannahill, had a rather big New York premiere of his play called Prince Faggot. And I believe it was done in a relatively small theatre, but the story behind the show, the director that was attached, it garnered a lot of interest. And all sorts of celebrities were coming out to see the show. So, Anna Wintour, and Alexander Skarsgard, Rami Malek. So, we had some experience with books taking off somewhat not unexpectedly, but just like, oh, wow, these big things are happening. People are talking about them.

None of that compared to Yaga. It was, yeah, Yaga... Bless the Heated Rivalry fandom of which I consider myself a very minor member of, but, yeah, it was... I've never seen anything like that. We sold out of the print book almost immediately. And part of that is a lot of stores wouldn't have had the book in stock. The book was a few years old. It's a play. Most stores don't stock plays regularly, much to my deep, deep disappointment. I feel half the bookstore should be plays, but I understand that might not be feasible for bookstores.

Nataly: Maybe this is a book that changes that, you know?

Annie: Right? Exactly. Exactly.

Nataly: One can dream.

Annie: Right. But the online orders came in fast and furious. And so, even our own website sold out. So, we were selling ebooks and the...watching the countries that...you know, we can see the address of the person who's bought the book, and it's the Philippines, it's Romania, it's...I can't even think of all the countries. But it was very impressive to see the sort of worldwide interest in this story. And I'm so thrilled for the playwright. I could not be happier because I think...I mean, she'll correct me, but I think she's always wanted to do some TV stuff. And she has been able to be the showrunner, I guess, and really get to express her own creative vision.

And there are some changes. I know Hudson Williams' character in the play, he's the heir to a yogurt fortune, which I think...that tickles my funny bone. I'm like, a yogurt fortune? And I think they've changed it to make it a little more specific. I think he's the heir to a fishery, which will make sense in the context of the location the play is...or the TV show is taking place in. But I don't know. Yogurt just really had me.

Nataly: I do love the idea of someone getting rich by selling yogurt and then the heirs... Yeah. Why not?

Annie: Exactly.

Nataly: I love all of this that you're telling me. I'm learning so much. And you talk about the sales. So, let me see. So, the adaptation news. Well, one of the outlets that shared that was The Globe and Mail. And I read an article that says, and I quote, "The company has put in an unprecedented order of 1,000 copies for the play's next reprint after previous Yaga reprints of no more than 200 copies at a time." So, can you walk us through this process from a supply chain perspective? How does a publishing company of the size of Playwrights Canada plan for this?

Annie: Yeah. We can't, or maybe I should say we didn't. I don't know. One of our goals is to keep books in print. We want to make sure that if we publish a book, people are going to be able to access it for at least 10 years. So, I don't mean Yaga pre this news has been selling just fine. Right? It's been a consistent strong seller for us for the last couple of years. But we're ever mindful of getting charged fees. Our warehouse and distributor, they charge for sort of what they call overstock, which is basically books that sit around and don't sell, which is fair. They want to make sure things are moving through. So, yeah, this is why we sort of go, okay, we'll print 200 copies. But those 200 copies are sort of lasting us a year, maybe 18 months, and then we're going back to reprint them. I'm pleased to report that we've sold out the entire thousand copies that we reprinted last month. There is a new thousand copies coming in right now. Yeah.

Nataly: Annie, wow. And this is just with the news. This is just with the cast.

Annie: Yeah. Exactly.

Nataly: We're not even talking about a teaser or... Wow, Annie.

Annie: Exactly. I know.

Nataly: I'm so happy.

Annie: No one has seen this TV show. I mean, I'm sure the TV show is going to be very good, but this is the stuff I stay up late at night worrying about where I'm like, oh, my God, what if nobody likes it? This happened when people started buying the book. Because I'm used to our readers being quite familiar with what we publish. They've read plays before. They know how...the dialogue is going to be the main part that they're reading. There's not going to be big passages of prose. So, I got all nervous when all these sort of people who don't normally read plays started reading Yaga. And I would nervously sit on Threads or something going like, oh, I hope they like it. I hope they like it. And Nataly, they liked it. So many people said, "Oh, this was such a cool experience. I want to read more plays." And we have seen that, people buying Yaga on the website who say they're setting up a new customer account, buying other books, either of Kat Sandler's or just other things they think might be cool. I'm so happy about this. I've been sort of jokingly saying that Hudson Williams is saving Canadian publishing.

Nataly: I mean, yes.

Annie: Right? Between this and Rachel Reid's work. Actually, I think she might be published by not a Canadian publisher, whatever.

Nataly: HarperCollins. Yeah.

Annie: Yeah. To have something like this open up people's experience and open up their eyes to the other forms of literature that are out there, I'm like, that's the goal. Right? That's what I want to see happen. I spend all my time trying to convince people that plays are literature and I'm like, oh, I just had to attach a celebrity to it. It would have been so much easier, but no. In all seriousness, yeah, I couldn't be happier for how people are coming into this world. And I hope they stay. I hope they find other plays they like and stick around.

Nataly: This is so great. I didn't even think of the ripple effect that it would have. And it's so lovely to see. And maybe people will actually be, I don't know, more interested in also going to the theatre more often. So, why not? I love this.

Annie: And Yaga is coming back to Toronto. The Tarragon Theatre has announced their season for '26, '27. And I think it might be the closing show of '27. So, sometime in the spring, you'll be able to see the show on stage again. I don't know the casting. I assume Hudson Williams is not in the theatre show, but I could be wrong. I don't want to start a rumour.

Nataly: Can you imagine?

Annie: Right?

Nataly: That would be so hilarious. I listened to that in the Booknet Canada podcast. Annie Gibson started the rumour.

Annie: They had his co-stars...Connor Storrie was on SNL, and the internet was doing that thing where they track planes again to be like, well, I don't know if Hudson can make it to New York in time to do a cameo on the show. Oh, my God. So, yes, I'm officially starting the rumour. I'm not saying Hudson Williams. There's no chance he's not going to be in the show. Anyways, book your tickets to Yaga at the Tarragon Theatre coming in 2027.

Nataly: I love that. I love that. It's always a good excuse to catch a good theatre production. And, yeah, he may be... I don't know. He may not be part of the cast, but maybe he makes a guest appearance or something like that. He does hang out a lot here.

Annie: Right? I'd like to think so. There you go. Yeah. If I were an actor, I would come see the play that the work is based on.

Nataly: Me, too.

Annie: Absolutely.

Nataly: Oh, Annie. I am having so much fun. Let's go back to the questions. Let's talk a little bit more about...and you actually mentioned some of the things that I'm about to say. So, book to TV and movie adaptations have proven to impact book sales with optics at different stages of the productions, promotion, and release, like in this case that we were saying that it was just the cast news and it has impacted sales greatly. And we, BookNet, have also covered this in our blog very recently with a post about movies based on books, nominated for the Oscars, and also a post about Heated Rivalry and the Game Changer series.

So, considering that Yaga, the TV show, will be available not only in Canada, but also in the UK, Ireland, and likely other territories, how are you planning to manage the potential increase in sales domestically and internationally?

Annie: We're going to print more copies. We're lucky in that we have good distribution partners in both the U.S. and the UK. So, Theatre Communications Group is our U.S. sort of sales representative and distributor. They do a marvellous job. They, I believe, have sold half the copies of Yaga that we've already printed. We've sent them straight from the printer to the U.S. warehouse. And I would say... So, our sales rep and distributor in the UK is Nick Hern Books. And all three, like TCG, Nick Hern, and Playwrights Canada Press, we're all play publishers. So, the three of us distribute for each other in our respective territories. So, we know what selling plays is like. I consider it like a nice little triumvirate of people who really understand how to distribute a play.

And so, Nick Hern...the UK has a very different playbook publishing model. Very frequently, the copies of the book are sold at the production, which is different from Canada and the U.S. to some extent. If we can have copies for production, phenomenal. People will buy them, they want to take it home, that's great. But it just doesn't have that same tradition where in the UK, that's mainly where people are buying the books. So, they will often really only take the book if there's a production. But we've been able to convince them that Yaga is an exception to that rule. There's interest outside of the theatre world for it.

And, well, we've been proven right. We sent them 50 copies. They're sold out. We're sending them another 50 copies. So, I think it'll be really about communicating with them in advance and saying, okay, here's the release date for the show. We need you to have copies in your warehouse to see what... And maybe if you have 200 copies in your warehouse and you don't sell anything, fine. I'll take them back to Canada, because I know we can sell them here. But I don't want a situation where people want a book and can't access it, or have to pay for shipping from Canada all the way somewhere else.

And my one thing is what I'd really like is distribution in Australia, which technically Nick Hern takes care of. But the cost of shipping books there is astronomical. So, I feel like there's a whole host of people who probably want to see and read it. And maybe they're okay with ebooks, which is fabulous, love it. Sorry, texts are coming into my thing. Yeah. We can absolutely sell ebooks. But sometimes, I myself am a physical book reader, and I want to hold the book. Well, actually, no, we don't have pictures in Yaga, but you never know. I'm joking. We're not putting any more pictures in Yaga.

Nataly: Another rumour? Is this another rumour?

Annie: I know. One of our things as a play publisher is often people who go on to become big movie stars got their start in Canadian theatre. And I love it when we do sort of a historical book or retrospective that has, you know, a young Keanu Reeves in it or something like that. And, yeah, that's my plug to go pick up the Theatre Passe Muraille book, which has a still from Wolf Boy, which if you don't know... So, Keanu, back in the day, was in sort of an erotic play called Wolf Boy by Brad Fraser. There's a very nice photo of Keanu in that book.

Nataly: For all the Keanu and The Matrix fans.

Annie: Right? Bringing it full circle. Carrie-Anne Moss. She's the tie that holds it all together.

Nataly: So, that was actually related to my most important and most serious question of this interview. I need to know, Annie. How do you feel about the fact that the adaptation of Yaga is the reason why Heated Rivalry, The Matrix, and the Schitt's Creek universes are colliding? How do you feel about this? It's crazy.

Annie: Over the moon. I have to tell you, all three of those things bring me great joy. I'm an action fan. I love an action movie. So, The Matrix, way up there. Carrie-Anne Moss as Trinity is like...they don't put women in action movies very often. So, watching her do what she did, oh, chef's kiss. Schitt's Creek will always hold the most special place in my heart. Catherine O'Hara aside, I cry. I love Catherine O'Hara so much. But I also...my mom lives around the corner from the place where they filmed the exterior of the Rose Motel on Schitt's Creek. So, I drive by it often and wave. And it's now a motel that's up and running that you can stay in.

Anyways, this is all beside the point. But that show filled me with such joy because even though it was wacky, they were good people. Everyone on the show was a good person. And I feel that's the same with Heated Rivalry, right? You have these very complex characters who have to hide who they are, but have feelings and such valid feelings that they need to express constantly. Yeah. So, for Yaga to be the thing that draws them all together, it makes me feel closer to some of my favourite things. And it's so nice. It's so nice.

Nataly: I know. I know. That's exactly how I feel. I love Hudson Williams, of course. But when I kept reading the article, and then I found out that there was the involvement of more Canadian actors and such an important Canadian actress. Oh, my God. This is huge, not just for the Canadian film industry, the book industry, creatives, it's huge in so many layers. And I'm so happy that it's Yaga that is bringing them together.

Annie: Me, too. I couldn't be happier about that.

Nataly: She's doing a happy dance for those who cannot see her. Oh, Annie, this has been lovely. Thank you so much for your time.

Annie: Oh, you're welcome. Thank you. This is super fun.

Nataly: I'm looking forward to seeing the play, hopefully. And I'm also looking forward to watching the show on Crave. This is gonna be huge. And also, I'm going to keep an eye on what the future holds for playwrights, maybe more huge adaptations. Who knows?

Annie: Right?

Nataly: I'm so excited for this.

Annie: Maybe they'll pick Connor Storrie for the next one.

Nataly: Before I go, I would like to take a moment to acknowledge that BookNet Canada's operations are remote and our colleagues contribute their work from the traditional territories of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, the Wyandot, the Mi’kmaq, the Ojibwa of Fort William First Nation, the Three Fires Confederacy of First Nations (which includes the Ojibwa, the Odawa, and the Potawatomie), the Métis, as well as the unceded and ancestral territory of the Musqueam, Squamish, or Tsleil-Waututh peoples, the original nations and peoples of the lands we now call Beeton, Guelph, Halifax, Thunder Bay, Toronto, Vancouver, Vaughan, and Windsor.

We encourage you to visit the native-land.ca website to learn more about the peoples whose lands you are listening from today. Moreover, BookNet Canada endorses the Calls to Action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada and supports an ongoing shift from gatekeeping to spacemaking in the book industry. The book industry has long been an industry of gatekeeping. Anyone who works at any stage of the book supply chain carries a responsibility to serve readers by publishing, promoting, and supplying works that represent the wide extent of human experiences and identities in all that complicated intersectionality. We at BookNet are committed to working with our partners in the industry as we move towards a framework that supports spacemaking, which ensures that marginalised creators and professionals all have the opportunity to contribute, work, and lead.

We would also like to acknowledge the Government of Canada for their financial support through the Canada Book Fund, and of course, thanks to you for listening.

Podcast: The Heated Rivalry ripple effect impacting playwrights publishing in Canada

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