This month’s episode features an interview with Naomi Bacon, founder of Tandem Collective, a marketing agency with a revolutionary approach to social media marketing.
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Erum Noor: Hello and welcome to the BookNet Canada podcast. I'm Erum Noor, marketing and research associate at BookNet Canada. This month I had the chance of interviewing Naomi Bacon, founder of Tandem Collective, a marketing agency that has evolved into a force in the publishing industry. In this episode, Naomi talks about the incredibly important role that social media and online reading communities can play in successfully marketing books. We briefly discuss Tandem's work, online reading behaviour and trends, and how publishers and booksellers can utilize their social media. So, let's jump right into it.
Hi, Naomi. How are you?
Naomi Bacon: I'm very good, thank you. It's lovely to be here with you.
Erum: Thank you so much. I'm really glad that you had the time to sort of sit with us and chat with us. And I'm super excited to have this conversation with you. So, I first learned about Tandem when I was doing my master's at SFU, and I remember you coming in and telling us about the kind of work that you all did, and we were all blown away by it. So, maybe we can start there. Can you tell us a little bit about what Tandem does, how it came to be?
Naomi: Of course, and that kind of fills my heart hearing that because, you know, once upon a time, I was you lot as well, you know, and it's the kind of... It's amazing to sort of see the next generation of people coming through to publishing and to actually have the opportunity to sort of, I guess bring a little bit of excitement and inspiration about something that looks a bit different. And I think Tandem was very much born out of me going in-house. I was in-house at Pan Macmillan for a long time. And whilst I was there, I was briefing marketing agencies. And I just felt that there was a big gap because the agencies that I was working with, they were never predominantly focused on publishing. They tended to be looking after big brands, film, big budget campaigns. And obviously, our sort of thing in publishing is very small budgets. So, I always felt that we were kind of the less exciting campaigns. I could feel that there was less effort going into the proposals, and they just didn't understand the budget restrictions.
So, for me, Tandem was, well, it came out of many kind of different circumstances, but the main one being that there was a gap for an agency that was fully focused on publishing and the nuances that come from publishing. So, I went freelance when I was 27. And after a year of being, sort of, inundated with freelance work, I started Tandem with a business partner who had also been in-house and had gone freelance. And we just, kind of, were a one-stop-shop initially, and I didn't want a business plan. I may be quite an unconventional founder in that way, because I never wanted a business plan, because I wanted to see where the demand came from. So, we did everything and anything from out of home through to, kind of, paid social. I basically said yes to anything and then I would learn how to do it, which is often the way.
And then, kind of, two years in, we just stumbled across the concept that is now the bedrock of Tandem and a client came to us with a paperback that they'd had to rebrand. It had, kind of, flopped at hardback, and it was this really, truly fantastic little thriller called Fierce that had been...it was called Fierce Kingdom. It was rebranded as Fierce. And their client said to me that we haven't really got any budget. We just need some good visuals on Instagram. We need to give it a little bit of public love. And I, up to that point, had been working with macro creators and obviously needed big budget for that. So instead, in this instance, I found 20 micro creators, all of whom had maybe a thousand followers, maybe less, and I sent them all copies of the book. And because the book was set over four hours and you could actually read it in real time, we just decided on a whim to do a real time read-along. I mean, this concept didn't exist at the time. And I sent everyone the books and they had question cards hidden in the pages. And on these question cards, there were also creative challenges. So, things like create a video in the perspective of the character on Instagram stories. And what it did was it gave rise to, I think, 170 pieces of content, something like that.
Erum: Wow.
Naomi: Yeah. And, you know, I remember the kind of sentiment of everyone was saying, "Oh, I keep seeing this book everywhere on Bookstagram." And because it was much earlier days of Instagram, it did feel... You know, the algorithm kind of played in your favour, so it did feel like everyone was reading this book and the sales team were able to correlate all sales back to the activity we were doing because there was no other marketing running. So, I think low-budget campaigns like that actually can be very important because they can distinguish the results. You know, when you've got lots of marketing running, it's hard to identify what's impactful and what's not. And that really is now the foundation of Tandem. I mean, I think you've been on a read-along, I think, have you?
Erum: I have, yeah.
Naomi: What was your experience of it?
Erum: It was great. I really didn't expect to be invited on in the first place because, again, I was so tiny. So, yeah, it was so much fun and it was so cool. And I loved meeting the other Bookstagrammers as well. You guys did such a great job. It was wonderful. So much fun.
Naomi: And on that note, I was looking at some questions earlier and you were saying, you know, how has AI kind of impacted us, and I actually think...I hope it's going to actually have an adverse effect in terms of it's not going to impact us because the harder we go on AI, the more demand there is for community. And that's what you found from the read-along. It's the sense of connection and community. And I actually think often with these things, we see a reaction that goes in the polar opposite. So, I think there'll be more demand for things like user-generated content, more demand for any community-led marketing. So, I think in terms of how it's going to impact us, I'm hoping it just makes us stronger and people are seeking that sense of community more.
Erum: Yeah, fingers crossed. It does sound like it would, because even now with how AI has been affecting creators, I do feel like everybody has come together in some capacity.
Naomi: Absolutely yeah.
Erum: So, fingers crossed. I hope so. So, you mentioned read-alongs, so I'm going to kind of harp on that for a little bit. So, yes, I did have a chance to participate in one of these, so I do know a little bit about how it works. But do you want to maybe tell us how these read-alongs work? And another question that often I feel comes up when in the industry we're talking about such marketing campaigns is, how do you measure success?
Naomi: Brilliant question. So, the read-alongs are constantly... I mean, they've been running for eight years now. We've done thousands. I don't even know the number anymore. You know, probably over 3,000, but they have evolved over time. But interestingly, I guess kind of the framework has stayed the same. You know, we've built things on it, and we've made them a bit more elaborate. But the way they work is the publisher will specify how many readers they want. So, it can be 30, 40, 50, 100. I mean, the biggest we've done is 750 people globally. So, they can specify how many people they want. And within that, or based on that number, we have a collective follower count. So, really the client is paying for 30 participants with a collective follower count of X amount. I think it's around 50,000, something like that. So, the group is meant to equate to one macro creator, and that's why we invite smaller accounts on because for me, it's more about lots and lots of voices making louder noise rather than one macro creator. And there's so much data now to show that that is a lot more impactful working with, kind of, multiple micro creators.
So, anyway, that's what the client kind of specifies, and then we advertise the read-along in our Friday newsletter, which has a crazy open rate but that's obviously because people want to see what read-alongs are on offer. People wait with bated breath for that Friday newsletter. So, people sign up and then we have an algorithm that, kind of, sifts through the applications, and it looks at things like, yeah, account size so that we always have much smaller accounts. We maybe have one larger account. It looks at how many read-alongs people have done in recent months so that we always have that sense of equity and it always feels... You know, people always feel like they have a fair chance. And then we kind of do a human check of that list and we make sure that we're happy with that group.
And then everyone receives a copy of the book, and we've digitized the question cards and prompt cards for sustainability reasons. So, they will receive kind of digitized pack, and they're all added to a DM group so that we can, kind of, keep everyone engaged and excited and have that sense of connection and community. And then everyone receives a reading schedule and that can span... it very much depends on the book, but it could be five days. It could be a week. It could be two weeks, depending on the genre and the length. And then each day really there's a number of pages to be read and then associated challenges and prompts for people to discuss in the DM group. And then on the final evening, often we might invite the author in for a private DM Q&A with the group, which is a really kind of special exclusive experience, not only for the read-along participants but also for the author because those opportunities to actually connect with readers are quite rare for authors these days. You know, we don't have as many reader events now.
And then we ask for data. So, that is how we measure success. So, we collate data off the back of every read-along we have done for eight years. So, we've got a huge wealth of data now, and we determine an engagement rate using a formula very similar to the paid social formula just because that's an easier point of comparison. So, we look at engagement rate. We look at kind of cost per piece of content. We have a metrics team who are constantly rethinking these measures for success, but I think that is why... We don't have access to sales data. We only have anecdotal knowledge around sales because we don't have that direct access. Sometimes clients will share with us, but the kind of measure for success for us is repeat bookings. That's how we know it works. We never don't have a repeat booking. So, we know that obviously that is a contributing factor to sales in terms of, you know, for publishers' success metrics. But for our success metrics, it's looking at the engagement rate and then comparing that against genre, against other campaigns that we run for that client.
And the other thing to add is that we also, in some instances, and we're seeing a big return to this now, is we often send numbered parcels out alongside the books and the prompt cards. And these are items that directly relate to the world of the book. So, for example, one of the first immersive read-alongs was for Lucy Foley's "The Hunting Party" and it's set in Scotland. And we sent tartan reading rugs in the colour scheme of the front cover. And we sent incense sticks that smelt like pine that the readers are asked to open when the characters are walking through the forest. So, it gives reading an immersive experience. And I think because we were doing that pre-COVID and then obviously lockdown happened, there was this real demand to that kind of sense of like, yes, escapism and in-world experience. Does that answer what is a read-along? It's quite a convoluted...
Erum: No, absolutely. Absolutely it does. And that sounds so fun. Well, I love the idea of including all of these other sensations and really making reading even larger than it can be. That is so fun. And then put that in a community setting. That's amazing. That's wonderful. So, okay, we've got a sense of how these work. And you've mentioned that you've been at this for quite some time now. So, if we were to try to zoom out a little bit and look at social media as a whole, I know that even to this day, social media marketing can be, kind of, new to publishing companies, small presses. So, based on your experience, what role do you feel that social media plays in the book industry today?
Naomi: It's crucial. You know, I shouldn't admit this, but personally I don't love social media. You know, I don't use my social media personally, but I think in terms of book promotion, especially for kind of certain genres, it is crucial because it is that it's a forum for word of mouth, and word of mouth will forever be the most powerful tool in marketing. And how do we emulate that? The only social media is amplifying me recommending a book to you or to my close friends. That's what actually sells books. And social media allows us to sort of amplify that action. And I think the interesting thing that I always say about word of mouth marketing is, you know, it's not a trend. It's a human behaviour. We recommend things to make other people's lives easier within our group. So, I think that's why social is important, because it plays up that opportunity.
I think it also allows authors to be connected to readers in a way that wasn't possible before. There used to be such a kind of disconnect or detached role of the author that would be a book signing. Whereas now readers can feel directly connected to the authors that they love. I think it adds an affordability to social as well. Out-of-home advertising costs an absolute fortune and is only really reserved for sort of big, big brand releases. But, you know, we work with publishers globally, and budgets are being slashed left, right, and centre. So, there needs to be an affordability in the marketing. So, finding the forums that let you spend less money but have measurable results, and paid social allows you to have measurable results, even organic social. You know, you could, kind of, see the response and see the sentiment. Yeah, I think social evolves and changes and shifts, and the platform that's popular changes. But I don't think we're going to lose it. I think it's going to always be a kind of key tool for promotion.
Erum: Yeah, for sure. And what do you think is important for publishers to know when they are considering setting this up for themselves?
Naomi: I think don't try and do all of the platforms. I think that's the biggest mistake is trying to spread yourself too thinly because having social presence does demand a lot of resource and time. And I think often it can detract from the actual objective. So, we can almost procrastinate because we're spending so much time creating social content, and it doesn't actually need to be that. It just needs to be good content and consistent, so it's not necessarily about posting every single day. If you're indie and you have a team of one, that's impossible because you need to be doing other stuff. But I think it's not spreading yourself too thinly, not feeling you have to have presence on every single platform, just doing one really well. And also, not feeling... And really well doesn't mean constant volume of content. It just means the consistency and content that actually has thought behind it rather than filler content.
Erum: Right. Yeah, for sure. I think that's a great place to start, at least given budget and time restrictions. Yes. And would you say that that strategy differs at all for booksellers?
Naomi: Oh, interesting. I mean, I think booksellers having a social platform is an amazing opportunity because it just goes back again to the kind of word of mouth aspect. When I walk into a bookshop and there's the bookseller recommends cards or table at the front, I'm drawn to that immediately, and this is again a global expression of that. So, I guess the point now is whether the bookseller in question wants to be considered as an influencer or a creator, because it's different for a brand or a publisher. That's focused on a list, on an imprint, on the brand. Whereas I guess for a bookseller, you are presenting yourself as an influencer and a creator in building that social platform for yourself.
Erum: That is really interesting. I hadn't thought about that before. So, you think that it might even be a smarter approach to approach as another reader or just another person contributing to one of those voices?
Naomi: Yes. So within our community, we have a list of creators who are also booksellers. So that might be an opportunity where a client said to us, "I want to source X number of creators who are booksellers, but they're a creator first and foremost."
Erum: Right. Yeah, that's fascinating. I had not considered that at all. Okay, cool.
Naomi: Same with things like schoolteachers or librarians, we've also got lots of that, like school librarians, schoolteachers who double up as creators. It's the same thing.
Erum: Yeah, okay. So, more of a participant role in order to have any real influence, which is very cool. Okay, all right. So, we've sort of chatted about read-alongs and how social media on a whole has affected everything and how publishers and booksellers can use these things to their advantage. How would you say this is affecting, or what is your understanding of how the readers online function? You've been working with them for some time now. Is there anything you can share about how you believe the community behaves, how they interact with books, and how that might impact marketing considerations that the book industry has to take into account?
Naomi: Oh, okay. Oh, this is a very intelligent question. So, kind of, the simple version is how have readers evolved in terms of use of social, I guess, is that, sort of, the question?
Erum: Yeah, and if there's any difference that comes to mind with regards to how they might behave offline versus online.
Naomi: I mean, there is the sort of classic anonymity of being online. I think maybe sometimes people are much more vocal online than maybe they would be in public, than if they were there in person. But as a whole, I find the Bookstagram/BookTok community very user friendly and very kind of loving and caring. I mean, you always have, sort of, a debate around should we be posting... Should people post negative reviews? Because authors can't escape that now. You would be able to... In previous times, you knew a review was coming out in a broadsheet paper but you could avoid that paper. Whereas you can't avoid it on social. You know, something's going to crop up and you're not able to avoid seeing a negative comment. And I think this is very painful for authors, and I think we can maybe sometimes forget humanity a little bit when we have the mask of social. And so, you know, we never specify, we don't tell people to not post negative reviews at all, but I think that does need to be something that comes into account. And, you know, the way I run the company, there are kind of key values: compassion, connection, and courage. But compassion is such a key one on all levels. I think it's trying to have compassion for authors and other readers. And I think maybe that compassion sometimes can get lost in social, especially when people feel very kind of maybe heated around a book.
But I think in terms of more sort of trends, like social stuff, I think I'm seeing sort of the biggest trend in marketing, I guess, which is because it's a reflection of what readers are responding best to, is a focus on user-generated content. So, the read-alongs, you know, the power of them is that they generate all of this user-generated content. That's the whole point of them, but the way that paid social is working now is we are getting huge demand for user-generated content to be used as part of the Meta and TikTok ad strategies, which is completely new. So, we used to pay a big name creator to create these content, and then you would use that in your strategy and they would also be posting on their own accounts. Now we're seeing a real shift to finding real people who want to talk about the book but don't post on their accounts. So, it's using real people in ads, essentially. And that is because readers are responding a lot better to that kind of paid social content than seeing a big name influencer, someone that has been paid for sponsored content in that way. So, I think that's been a really big shift that we've seen in terms of marketing trends and reader responses. Yeah. Well, give me more... Do I need more on this?
Erum: You're doing great. This is great. Thank you. On that note, if we were to talk about potential sub communities and smaller groups within the reading community, have you felt like you've noticed differences in how these different communities behave? Is that something you feel you have to take into account, like reader behaviour for different...?
Naomi: Absolutely. 100%, 100%. Like, yeah, readers all operate very differently. And it's also not as simple as being able to kind of segment that easily because I love horror. That's my genre is horror. But I also read a huge amount of self-development and business books. And I love it. I love a good thriller. Have never touched a... You know, it's not as simple as one profile per reader. I think there's a lot of sort of overlap. But reader insight is such a huge piece of what we do, even to the point now of informing the marketing plans that we implement. We will do a huge, kind of, reader focus group in order to work out what the creative should look like for the marketing, like what should the taglines be, trying to really engage the reader from the beginning so that nothing is left to assumption. I think that's probably marketing's biggest mistake over the years, like making assumptions about who the reader is and what they want. And that's when we have situations where a book isn't packaged correctly.
So, yeah, I think in answer to your question, yes, sub communities do function very differently, but I wouldn't want to give a kind of sweeping statement of this is how the romance readership functions versus this is how the thriller readership functions. I think it all just comes back to, kind of, speaking to the readers. Yeah.
Erum: Right. Okay, cool.
Naomi: I kind of circumvented that question, but I think in terms of platform specific as well, Reddit is cropping up as a big platform as well. And I think, you know, Reddit versus Instagram versus TikTok, there are nuances within the platforms as well that we need to take into account because those communities do function differently. And a long, long time ago, YouTube was my main focus, and that's a completely different forum to what we have kind of dominating these days. So, yeah, it's not only the reader kind of sub communities of genre. It's also where you find them, I guess, also has nuance as well.
Erum: Right. Yeah. So, they exist in different spaces and then they operate differently but then there's also tons of overlap between those people.
Naomi: Exactly.
Erum: Yeah. Okay, wow. So much to think about. Okay, so if we were to consider, if you wanted to share some advice for publishers with small teams and smaller budgets, we already discussed this a little bit before. But if there's anything on top of that you might want to add, especially if they're considering working with influencers themselves, any do's and don'ts?
Naomi: Such a hard one, because that's why we exist. That's why Tandem exists because this was the challenge that I constantly encountered in-house. I'm wanting to say to you the kind of top advice would be build that community around you so that your community members are your marketing mouthpieces, but I'm saying that knowing full well the maintenance that that takes, the challenge that that poses. You know, it's a constant job. So, I'm sort of wary to give that advice.
I think it would be recognizing what is achievable within the resources that you have, like the time that you have, the platforms that you have available to you, you can't... I think that's what I'm seeing in marketing teams right now is the kind of stress and strain on teams when budgets are small but you've still got to deliver good results. And, you know, it feels very sort of personal. You know, you want to do personally a very good job. I think it would just be recognizing that it is a challenge, and there is a huge number of books being published more than ever before. It's almost as if there's like... We're publishing as many books as possible to hope that something sticks. So, it's not like we used to have these big, kind of, lead event titles where the whole publishing house would get behind it. It almost feels now like there's so many books out there that it's difficult to have that kind of bestseller spot, maintain that bestseller spot now.
So, I guess it's recognizing that the industry looks different, that the challenges are greater. I would say collaboration with your team members. I think the anxiety and stress of delivering can come when you feel like you are having to do it all alone, and I think what we've learned at Tandem is, you know, sharing, discussing campaigns. I think the way, you know, notoriously publishers are set up is, you know, people have, "I have my list of titles I work on, you have your list of titles." I just think there does need to be a move away from that because I think that the kind of diversity perspective, even if there's two of you in a team, two of you ideating and creating and solving blockers and solving issues, it's going to be a lot stronger. So, I think it's trying to have as collaborative an approach as possible, you know, and trying to avoid being siloed.
I think it's being clever with the money that you do have. You know, it's thinking about the things that are going to get the biggest impact, which I would always argue is micro creator word of mouth. And it's maybe just having your key group of ambassadors, you know, even if it's 10 people who are your mouthpieces and they can shout about you on your behalf. And it's maybe just trying to refresh that every year. You know, it's not trying to be like, "I need a hundred creators on our list." It's like, "Who are my...?" That's how Tandem began. I had 1,000 followers on the Instagram account. Just me. And I had no idea what I was doing, but I had these sort of maybe, you know, 10 people who always showed up and then I would be able to say to them, "Do you know anyone on Bookstagram who likes reading this kind of book?" And then they'd recommend. So, yeah, it's just starting small, not looking too far into, you know, blue sky and recognizing what's achievable within the kind of parameters that you have.
Erum: Yeah, I resonate with what you're saying with regards to collaboration and marketing. I don't think... It's very difficult to churn out anything good when you're isolated and having to think of it yourself.
Naomi: Precisely. How are you meant to do that?
Erum: I think, yeah, some of the best... Yeah, precisely. Some of the best stuff in the past marketing-wise, for any creative project, I feel always has been a product of collaboration, a bunch of different minds coming together. Okay, so we're going to start talking about trends as we wrap up. Because you've all spent so much time online with your communities, I wonder if there was anything fun, any surprisingly effective online trend that you had the chance to participate in or maybe even invent.
Naomi: Well, I mean, you know, I'd argue we invented the read-along. And, you know, I think that was interesting because we very quickly started to see, kind of, people jumping on their own versions of the read-along. And they just never stuck because I think the realization was how much time and effort actually goes into them and how impossible it... You can't just set up a read-along and run it from scratch. You have to, kind of, build a community raring to go. It's about the demand. So, I'd argue that that's the kind of biggest thing.
But on a kind of more granular level, we have a team member who does what we call the "trends update." One is internal for the team and one is external for the client. And she essentially just goes through every platform, pulling out the trends, trending sounds, trending pieces of content, and how could we replicate this, what could we do here. And that's something that the team uses to inform their marketing campaign. So, you know, we watch that trends update together, so we've all got that in the back of our minds when we're approaching marketing campaigns is trying to be very on the cusp and also making sure we empower clients with that as well, because I think half the battle is being on top of trends. You're meant to keep an eye on everything all at once all the time. I think if we can make that easy for clients, you know, we do.
So, it's less of a maybe... I think user-generated content is the other trend. I think it's the read-alongs, user-generated content. But I think it's also just seeing the trends. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. If there's trending content out there, some of our most successful content on our account has been riffing on the trends that are out there already, because that's what people are responding to and you've already got indication of that. Yeah.
Erum: Okay, yeah. That's awesome. As someone who's had the chance to be a part of your read-alongs, I've seen how these communities interact and how these groups of little Bookstagrammers interact, and it's all so wholesome. But you mentioned this when you spoke to us as well, which is you really try and help these micro-influencers as well as, you know, using them as part of your read-alongs to kind of get that content out there. So, can you just shine some light on that? It's just that commitment to supporting smaller creators.
Naomi: Yeah, I think Tandem was once small, you know? Once upon a time I had one follower. I began from nothing. And, you know, I began the company with £50 and, you know, there was no one following me on Instagram and no clue. And I just think in every aspect of life, that it's the kind of karma of there will be a day when those accounts that have 200 followers have 2,000 followers and then they have 10,000 followers. And it's that sense of loyalty, I guess. That's probably why, you know, a lot of the creators that are still with us who are large accounts now have stayed with us because they remember a time when they were equally small as Tandem and we've grown together.
So, I just think, firstly, that it's short-sighted of publishers to not recognize that fact, that you need to kind of nurture the community. We need the community to keep growing and the only way to do that is nurture and encouragement. And what's the best way of kind of nurturing and helping accounts to grow? It's involving them in a community initiative like a read-along because suddenly you're interacting with other accounts who are following you and you're getting, you know, seen by their followers because of the algorithm. So for me, it's just that kind of naturally wanting to support other people.
And the second thing is, you know, micro creators are having a moment. The kind of nature of their levels of engagement is being recognized finally. And, you know, this theory that we've put forward for years and years is finally getting sort of recognition and pick-up that it doesn't matter how many followers you have. The engagement actually... I remember our engagement being at a super high level when I had 2,000 followers, and the bigger you get, you know, the more that engagement is a battle. So, yeah, I think it's just recognizing that, I think I said at the beginning, lots of voices are much stronger than just one.
Erum: Yeah, that's really respectable. I appreciate that. I know that it'll probably make a huge difference, like you said, in the future for anybody who tends to grow with you. So, that's very cool. All right. I think we're just going to wrap up now with any last thoughts with regards to... You already talked about a little bit about AI and how that might even be a good thing for Tandem. What do you think book marketing might look like a few years down the line? Do you feel like, apart from, say, an impact on user-generated content, that anything else might be impacted or we'll be doing things differently?
Naomi: Yes, we will but I can't even forecast because I wouldn't even want to take a stab at that because, you know, the reality is Tandem does not look how I ever imagined it would look maybe because I just never did have an idea because I never had a business plan. But I just don't think we can forecast it that way. I think there's so many factors that are out of our control or our schemas. It can be something like a political situation or an economic situation, and that can impact the way marketing functions. We forget that everything is so integrated and, you know, I wouldn't even want to take a wild guess at what the marketing landscape could look like because I never imagined being in this place. I think it's just always trying to be curious about it, and I think there's a lot of fear... But there's always a lot of fear with things changing. But, you know, AI, I totally understand the sort of fear around AI detracting from creativity, but it's here and it's not going to stop.
And I saw the same reaction with social, you know, and social has become such a powerful marketing tool. And I think it's worth trying to work with these things and trying to flip fear into something exciting and, you know, maybe an opportunity. So, it's just always having that curiosity and keeping an eye out on new things and testing stuff. And I do always say to the team, we also don't have to be the leaders in everything. You can also just sit back and quietly watch and not have to jump on things immediately. You can also let things play out. And the team will often say, "Oh, can we start this social media platform? Can we do this?" And I've always said, "No, we're sticking with Instagram and TikTok, that's it." Because, you know, I know that these things sometimes just take time to play out and maybe everyone gets excited. You jump on a bandwagon and then it falls flat and you've invested time and energy. So, also, it's not needing to be at the head of the curve, you know? It's like being a few steps back is also okay.
Erum: Yeah, you mentioned this a couple of times and I love this approach to, I think, everything. Just not having a business plan, which I think totally tracks.
Naomi: That’s life.
Erum: Yeah.
Naomi: You just can't, you know? I never thought I'd even be... I'm in Vietnam right now, and I'm working remotely for five years. I never imagined that that would even be an opportunity to be able to have run a business remotely. So, how can I even imagine what the future holds in terms of business life. The reality is be open to every opportunity, I guess. I think we just constantly ask clients and the community, "What do they want?" We've just done a huge report called "Content Futures." So, we've been asking the community in various surveys and focus groups like, "What did they see the future as? Like, what do they want to see?" And we've equally been doing that for clients, which is how we can sort of understand like budgets, what challenges are maybe going to be coming up that we can think of ways to respond to. So, it's just asking the right questions more than anything.
Erum: For sure. Thank you so much. This was so fun. And I feel like I learned so much about Tandem and online book marketing in general. I wish you all the best of luck, and we hope that Tandem continues to do the great work that it does.
Naomi: Thank you so much for having me. Lovely chatting to you. Thank you so much.
Erum: Before I go, I would like to take a moment to acknowledge that BookNet Canada's operations are remote and our colleagues contribute their work from the traditional territories of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, the Wyandot, the Mi’kmaq, the Ojibwa of Fort William First Nation, the Three Fires Confederacy of First Nations (which includes the Ojibwa, the Odawa, and the Potawatomie), the Métis, as well as the unceded and ancestral territory of the Musqueam, Squamish, or Tsleil-Waututh peoples, the original nations and peoples of the lands we now call Beeton, Guelph, Halifax, Thunder Bay, Toronto, Vancouver, Vaughan, and Windsor.
We encourage you to visit the native-land.ca website to learn more about the people whose lands you are listening from today. Moreover, BookNet Canada endorses the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada and supports an ongoing shift from gatekeeping to space-making in the book industry. The book industry has long been an industry of gatekeeping. Anyone who works at any stage of the book supply chain carries a responsibility to serve readers by publishing, promoting, and supplying works that represent the wide extent of human experiences and identities in all that complicated intersectionality. We at BookNet are committed to working with our partners in the industry as we move towards a framework that supports space-making, which ensures that marginalized creators and professionals all have the opportunity to contribute, work, and lead.
We would also like to acknowledge the Government of Canada for their financial support through the Canada Book Fund, and of course, thanks to you for listening.
Founder of Tandem Collective, Naomi Bacon, talks to us about how social media can be used to market books.