This month’s podcast episode is a continuation of the conversation from the Tech Forum webinar: Canadian book publishing: Insights from the latest salary survey. Saffron Beckwith, President at Ampersand Inc., joins us to chat about pay equity, inclusion, and more.

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Transcript

Nataly Alarcón: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the BookNet Canada podcast. I am Nataly Alarcón, your host for this episode. In case you missed it, on May 1, as part of our Tech Forum webinar series, we hosted a session where Dani MacDonald from the Association of Canadian Publishers shared insights from the Canadian Book Publishing Industry Salary Survey. In this session, we also had a great conversation about those findings through the lens of justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion with book industry professionals Ruth Linka, Phuong Truong, and Don Gorman. We want to keep that conversation going. So, I invited Saffron Beckwith, president at Ampersand Inc. to join me for this episode to chat about pay equity, inclusion, and more.

Saffron, welcome to the BookNet Canada podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.

Saffron Beckwith: Thanks for having me.

Nataly: Let's kick things off with a quick introduction. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and about Ampersand?

Saffron: Sure. My name is Saffron Beckwith and I've actually been at Ampersand for over 30 years now. So, I either say I'm either very lazy or very loyal, but it's a pretty great company to work for. And yeah, it's fantastic. So, we're a national sales force. We represent awesome Canadian publishers and international publishers from coast to coast. We've been in existence in some form for over 60 years, which is pretty amazing. We have three showrooms where we invite retailers of all stripes, librarians, wholesalers to come and hang out and visit all of our wonderful books. Last year, after a lot of hard work, we were certified as a B Corporation. So, we're really tremendously proud of that. It was a really hard exercise, but it really just made our company even better than it already is.

Nataly: I heard the news and I feel that we can do a whole new podcast episode just about that process because I know there's a lot that goes into having that certification. So, congratulations to you and your team. I promised that this will be a short but insightful interview. So, let's dive into the questions. So, we are starting strong. How do you see pay transparency and equitable wages intersecting with inclusion in the workplace?

Saffron: Yeah, I think it's super important. It wasn't something that was obvious to me until it was brought up by members of our staff. So, Ampersand does have pay transparency when it comes to listing jobs, looking for hiring people. But again, most of the things we do at Ampersand, it's not actually my idea. It's everyone I work with. And I was told that it's actually quite important in terms of equity and diversity and why it was important. I'm like, "Yep, that sounds pretty great. So, let's do it." Again, it wasn't necessarily an easy thing or a natural thing because it was something that we had never done before, but it was the right thing to do. So, we powered through being uncomfortable and we just did it.

But it's really interesting. My husband teaches ESL to new Canadians. And when I talked to him about there's this whole hoopla about pay transparency in publishing, he's like, "What? Why don't people do that?" Like, he works for the colleges and universities where that's just de rigueur. And for governments, right? So, it's for a lot of organizations, this is just something that you just do as a matter of course. And, yeah, so we're maybe about 10, 20 years late, but we're getting there and we're doing it at Ampersand.

And the reason we do things at Ampersand, not only is it the right thing to do, but it's also to actually share that journey and that process with other people and to inspire them. So, for example, Upstart & Crow, this great bookstore, and one of the many things they do in Vancouver, we learnt that they were a member of Living Wages for BC. So, we're like, "Oh, that's great." So, then we did that. Like, for Ampersand, it wasn't anything that we had to strive towards. We were already doing that. So, that wasn't the point. The point was... And we've done it for Ontario, which is basically I think the two provinces. And that's where our people live. So, to do that, just to, again, inspire other people to do the same thing.

Nataly: I love that. Yeah, I think that definitely there's a lot of awareness that is lacking for some sectors. So, it's like these conversations, people listening about this, the journey as a company, it's always very helpful. As I mentioned earlier in the introduction, you are the president at Ampersand. So, this is a leadership role with influence over compensation decisions. What advice do you have for those who don't have that authority, but still want to advocate for salary equity and improve working conditions for all employees, particularly those from equity-seeking communities?

Saffron: So, such a great question. And I've never actually had to deal with this personally, except one night around our dinner table. My daughter had a friend who... She just graduated from Queen's University as an engineer, you know? And so she was given this job at a downtown, very prestigious engineering firm. And she was asked... We're having this conversation about salary, and her boss, her director, of course. So, she was still, I guess, interning. I'm not sure what they call it in the engineering world, but there.

And so when it came to her transitioning into a full-time job, which is, of course, what you want after getting your engineering degree, her boss came to her and said, "What do you think we should pay you?" And I was like, "What?" And I was like, "That is a horrible, horrible thing to say to a young 21-year-old woman who's most definitely never had a full-time job, has no agency, has no understanding." And so that became very real to me. So, I thought about it because I was like, "Oh, you go to HR and talk to them." And like, no, you can't do that when you're not someone that has a position of authority.

So, I thought about it. And what I said to her, my advice is, "You know what you should do is..." because what's she going to say? Oh, if someone who's 21 years old, making $40,000 a year is probably winning the jackpot, when really she should probably be paid, in engineering, $100,000. So, I said, "You know what you should do is..." She's a lovely young woman. I said, "Talk to some of your colleagues. Talk to some of your peers. Share that experience with them," because again, she's just brand new. She's just starting out. She doesn't have any agency to go to... She didn't feel she was in a place to just say, "That's an inappropriate question," right? Like, "You should be telling me what the compensation package is." So, I said, just talk to some of your colleagues, some of your peers, see what they have, what they're getting paid or what the salary band is, and I think that would be a good way because at least you're not going in blind. But I just thought that was just really a terrible thing to do. But unfortunately, I don't think it's actually that uncommon.

So, I would suggest talking to colleagues, people you trust in the organization, and getting advice from them, because I think it's really specific, certainly in terms of salaries, to each industry and in each organization and each company. So, again, if this was all very transparent, if she worked for the government, it's all very cut and dried what people are being paid but not to a 21-year-old woman that's just starting out.

Nataly: Absolutely, yes, that's when resources like the survey that ACP developed come in handy as well, right? Because you have a reference, and maybe you can also use that data for negotiations and whatnot. Let's see. What do we have next? We know that addressing pay equity isn't always something that can be fixed overnight. So, beyond salary adjustments, what other steps has Ampersand taken to strengthen overall compensation for employees?

Saffron: So, we've done things like we give a pretty generous vacation package, right? So, everybody starts at three weeks, which I think is great because you can't necessarily buy time. Another thing we do is we take care of everyone's health benefits. So, Ampersand covers that. Everyone gets their birthday off, that kind of stuff. So, yeah, we have a... And we ask people what they want. And we do have bonus programs, and it's a pretty equitable program, like in terms of who gets what.

The thing that's interesting about publishing, in sales specifically, is that nobody is commission-based. That's true of the multinationals right down to pretty much any salesperson. Outside of publishing in sales, most people, not everybody, but it is 100% commission. If you think of people that are... So, it makes it a lot more cutthroat. I really like how it's that much more... Again, I think it's equitable in terms of salaries, people being paid a salary versus 100% commission, because I don't think that really fosters a good sense of community or generosity. People don't really want to help each other. And I kind of get it, because they just really want to look out for themselves because, "It's 100% commission. So, why am I going to take an order for Morgen or somebody else? Because that is time that's being taken away from me." So, I think that's one good thing that's really great about publishing and sales specifically., And yeah, I really like that. I think that's great.

The other thing we do... And again, for me, we had this — I think it was in Business Owner's Guide to Indigenous Reconciliation. It was from Self-Counsel Press, and I read that one book. And one thing that was really interesting that I took away from that and implemented is that we actually pay people for when we interview them for a job, because basically... And it's been really cool. People who are more senior, what they've done is they just asked us to donate it somewhere. But if you're a younger person, they will happily take the money. And it's important, because going for an interview, that takes a lot of time, right? If you're just starting out, if you're working at a retail location or even at another job, you're going to have to take the afternoon off. You're going to have to travel. You might have to pay to travel. So, that was in that book, which I thought was really smart. And I've shared that widely, and I think it's a really affordable and respectful way to look after people and their time. So, I'm quite proud of that too.

Nataly: I love that. And it's actually probably the first time I'm hearing about an initiative like that, honestly. Again, back to the awareness and about sharing these things. And I think it also may help to give the potential employee an idea of what kind of company they are potentially joining soon, if things go well.

Saffron: And something that's very practical, right? When we're looking at ways to make the world a better place, personally, I want something very tangible. It's like, "Just tell me what to do." And it's like, "Oh, that's something that's pretty easy. We can manage. It's good for everybody." And all the things we do at Ampersand are because they're the right thing to do, but they do have this wonderful consequence of just... As to your point, it's just showing people how great we truly are. So, yeah, so that's sort of the result, but it's not what the purpose was. It's win-win.

Nataly: Absolutely. Yes. So, we have one final question. Have you seen or implemented any practices that have helped reduce barriers to career advancement or that helped create an overall more diverse and equitable workplace?

Saffron: Again, like I... This is what I'm doing all the time, relying on other people and them sharing their information. It is great — though slash unfortunate — that the pay transparency has to be legislated. But I do think that that's... as it is in BC and it's coming to Ontario. But I just think that sometimes is something that needs to be done. And I'm happy for that. I think that's really great. I mean, I wish that people would do it by themselves, but that doesn't always happen. So, I think that the government stepping in and then people like Ampersand or the ACP or I think other organizations that sort of get ahead of it so they're not sort of dealing with it like, "Oh, my gosh, we have to do this right now," just get ahead of it, because it's going to happen. But again, I think continually talking with each other, reading, obviously, and sharing best practices, I think that's absolutely the way to go.

Nataly: I love that. Well, Saffron, that was all the questions we had. But before we wrap up, is there any final advice from your years in publishing that you would like to share with listeners who are working on making their workplaces more equitable, especially when it comes to compensation?

Saffron: Yeah, it's tough because I think that... So, I think for employees, you have to be able to trust the people that you report to or that you work with, because if you don't, then to be honest, it can end badly, right? So, I think sort of find out who your people are and just keep talking. Just keep talking to other people and looking for support too, right? Because you sometimes think that you're the only one going through this, but most definitely you're not, right? And I think that's why being part of organizations and talking with people, I think that is just really super helpful.

Nataly: Thank you, Saffron. Thank you for your time. It's been a pleasure. To dive deeper into this topic, I encourage you to watch the recording from the Canadian Book Publishing Insights From the Latest Salary Survey webinar and read the report featuring the results from the survey.

Before I go, I’d like to take a moment to acknowledge that BookNet Canada’s operations are remote and our colleagues contribute their work from the traditional territories of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, the Wyandot, the Mi’kmaq, the Ojibwa of Fort William First Nation, the Three Fires Confederacy of First Nations (which includes the Ojibwa, the Odawa, and the Potawatomie), and the Métis, the original nations and peoples of the lands we now call Beeton, Brampton, Guelph, Halifax, Thunder Bay, Toronto, Vaughan, and Windsor. We encourage you to visit the native-land.ca website to learn more about the peoples whose land you are listening from today.

Moreover, BookNet endorses the Calls to Action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada and supports an ongoing shift from gatekeeping to spacemaking in the book industry. The book industry has long been an industry of gatekeeping. Anyone who works at any stage of the book supply chain carries a responsibility to serve readers by publishing, promoting, and supplying works that represent the wide extent of human experiences and identities in all that complicated intersectionality.

We, at BookNet, are committed to working with our partners in the industry as we move towards a framework that supports "spacemaking," which ensures that marginalized creators and professionals all have the opportunity to contribute, work, and lead. We'd also like to acknowledge the Government of Canada for their financial support through the Canada Book Fund. And of course, thanks to you for listening.