Wondering how events have changed for independent booksellers now that we’re three years into the pandemic? We sat down with John Toews, the Event Coordinator at McNally Robinson Booksellers in Winnipeg to chat about the positive side of hosting virtual and hybrid events, how they measure success, the challenges that came with pivoting to virtual, and so much more.
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Transcript
Nataly Alarcón: Welcome to a new episode of the BookNet Canada podcast, I’m Nataly Alarcón, BookNet’s Marketing Associate. Today, we’ll be sharing an interview we recently did with John Toews from McNally Robinson Booksellers. In our conversation, we talk about how events have changed after the pandemic, the positive outcomes of hosting virtual and hybrid events, how they measure success, and so much more.
But first, let me introduce our guest. John Toews is the Event Coordinator at McNally Robinson Booksellers in Winnipeg. In that capacity, he has organized, promoted, executed, and hosted hundreds of events each year for over a decade. Starting in the Fall of 2020, the store began to incorporate virtual and hybrid events into their repertoire with all in-store events simultaneously broadcast online. In 2015, John received an Honorary Membership award from The League of Canadian Poets. He currently serves as the chair of the Board of Directors of send + receive, an international festival of experimental music and sound art based in Winnipeg on Treaty 1 Territory.
Now, without further ado, let’s hear the interview.
So, thank you so much for joining us, John. It is truly a pleasure to be speaking with you today.
John Toews: Oh, it's a real pleasure to be here, Nataly. Thank you, kindly.
Nataly: Okay. So, let's go with our first question. We want to know about the events that you are currently hosting. I am aware that McNally Robinson has more than one location. But I think that for this specific conversation, we can just talk about the Winnipeg location if that's okay with you. So, if you can talk to us about the events that you host there, are they book signings, are they author readings, maybe some other type of events, tell us everything?
John: Of course. So, at our store, we host primarily two types of events. One is a standard kind of book launch or presentation/in-conversation model that takes place physically at the store and is also live-streamed via YouTube and usually archived thereafter on our YouTube channel. Those tend to be more according to the book launch model. And then ultimately, we also host virtual launches, which are online only, also archived via our YouTube channel.
We moved away from traditional book signings several years ago because we simply found that we could almost feature the book just as prominently and just as well by simply going out of our way to promote it over social media and promote it in-store and give it a real presence there. So, we found that there wasn't much of a difference in awareness based on the proximity of the author at a desk in our store as compared to just really telling everybody about the book through all the various channels that we had. So, our primary focus has been on those live book events that feature a conversation or reading component.
Naturally, that changed a little bit just as we were coming out of the COVID lockdowns that we had here in Winnipeg. And in that way, we were originally doing a very significant number of events every year, roughly around 350 to 500 a year. And we'd already realized that was fairly untenable in the years leading up to COVID. And one of the few positives that actually emerged from the situation was the opportunity to kind of reorient and determine what we might like to do going forward, what might be most effective going forward.
And we also realized that the events, they're wonderful, and they're great community builders, but they also do take a toll on the store, and there are costs associated with it. And we have limited resources, particularly even more so now that we are in a "post-COVID time," and we can't do an infinite number of events. So we realized that we just really needed to telescope down and focus on those books we could most effectively serve as a promotional partner on, so we were really showcasing the books and the authors that we were bringing in and working with.
Nataly: That is super interesting. And it all makes sense. You know, like, I feel like also people... I'm not entirely sure, but I think that at least in my own experience, before the pandemic I was down to go to events all the time, and now I have to think twice like, "Is it safe? Are people gonna be wearing their masks?" Like, you have to do a lot more planning and it totally makes sense that you scaled down a little bit on the events. But thank you for sharing that.
And I was also very interested in the book signings part. I think that as a non-bookseller person/ non-publishing person, I thought book signings were a very big thing and that there was... I don't know, no way, not necessarily no way, but that they were, like, a main component in a marketing plan for a book. But I see that that's not necessarily true.
John: At least not within our market, we found. We experimented a little bit with that as we were slowly easing them out, like, almost experimenting, we would have one book where we would have a physical book signing where the author will be present, and then we take a comparable title and just work on ways of showcasing it through the other channels that I mentioned earlier. And we found that there was no real difference between the two.
And I know all my colleagues in the retail profession know there is nothing more painful than having to situate a poor author at a table in the middle of a store as people just, you know, try not to make eye contact while moving through because ultimately, what we want to do is just kind of celebrate the authors within our walls rather than ever force them into an uncomfortable position. So just being able to celebrate their work some other way seemed like the best choice for us, at least, although I realize that they work differently in other markets and other stores.
Nataly: That's very true and very valid. Yeah. So, one of the other questions that we have, and we have sort of, like, talked a little bit about, you know, it's been three years since the pandemic started. So, can you share with us a little bit about what measures are you taking to reduce the transmission of COVID among your community during these events, of course, during the in-person portion of the events?
John: Of course. No, we were very cautious when we started to move back into the physical event realm. Basically, when we started to open up again to the public, at that point, we were still only offering virtual events for a period of time because we were very cautious actually because the idea of suddenly calling in crowds of people into our store seemed inadvisable.
Then as lockdowns eased and as government restrictions eased also, we operated for around a year, even going a little bit above and beyond asking for masks to remain in place at events and just ensuring that nobody was unmasked with the exception of speakers. And we had our speakers positioned back from the crowd so that they would be at a safe distance.
Now, naturally, we can only do so much as a store without the support of government and without the support of the province itself. So when the province essentially opened everything up, we realized that also for the safety of our own staff because we didn't want to necessarily have there be confrontations every evening with customers and potential attendees and without that support from the government, we were essentially left by ourselves. So, we figured that we could offer the community ways to keep themselves safe, as well as encouraging that kind of behaviour within the store. All of our booksellers are masked. We've found that there's been zero transmission amidst our workforce over this, which is really remarkable. And I think a major portion of that is exactly for that reason.
I have hosted hundreds of events during this period of time, while being in crowds of people and have not caught COVID yet myself. And I think that's a real testament to not only the power of masks but also the power of just community health in general. But we're also cognizant to the fact that we're in a position where everybody can make those choices for themselves when they go out.
So, now moving forward, what we've tried to do is just provide the opportunities for safe attendance as much as humanly possible. And that's via the online component where people who are hesitant to gather in person can safely watch online now we're in the future. And we also provide masks and hand sanitizer for those folks who perhaps forgot them or feel more comfortable when they suddenly emerge into a space with a crowd. At least they have that option.
Nataly: Okay. And now that you're hosting hybrid events and virtual events, some people may have to travel to attend, you know, like, representing a much bigger impact on the environment compared to exclusively virtual events. Can you tell us if McNally Robinson is taking any measures toward environmental sustainability?
John: Well, certainly. And when it comes to travel, I think that's ultimately a bit of a decision for the publishers to make themselves, when it comes down to that. Our primary focus is always on Manitoba writers, Manitoba publishers. So, as a result, the real core of our event season is the local writing community. That's not to say that we don't often feature a lot of guests who fly in from other places, we occasionally do offsite events. We also do invite touring authors within our store as we're in a privileged position where we can actually have very substantive gatherings within our walls. We have a dedicated very large event space that can accommodate hundreds of people.
So, with that in mind, ultimately, I think the decision which seems to still be in the works right now with the publishers is whether or not it makes sense to have authors travel as much as possible. And as we've seen, I think that's already been impacted very dramatically. We're not seeing the same number of touring authors that we did before. I'd be surprised if we did in the future as well. So I think that aspect of environmental sustainability is coming about simply as a result of the overall industry more so than anything else. And I think there's a real push to find other viable promotional options outside of simply what tended to just be the standard.
Basically, you would just have an author who had a new book out, and then you'd transport them across the country, and then they'd come back at the end, and you just naturally do that. Whereas it seems now that's being a lot more targeted and people are being a lot more deliberate about which authors that they send out. So, as a result, I think that aspect of it is almost being taken care of because people are realizing, and one of the things that I think dramatically came out of the pandemic is that we realized we don't necessarily have to put these people on the road, we can give them a showcase in other ways.
So, I think a lot of the move toward broader national virtual events was a very positive thing and certainly helped with the environmental impact of what would otherwise have been a book tour. Having a large number of Indies, for instance, in Canada actually promotes a central virtual event rather than having so many different virtual events in competition. I think that was a very positive change that some of the publishers made. And in addition, we've also been working a lot more closely with publishers to determine whether or not an event is actually the best way that we can showcase a book. So I think that's really made a hit.
When it comes to just us locally within Winnipeg, we are located very accessibly in an area that has an active transit route, that has space for bicycles and things like that. So, essentially, that's what we can do as a business is just work with publishers and just provide a space where folks don't have to necessarily travel down via car to get here.
Nataly: So, well, we understand that replicating the in-person experience online, it's very challenging. And we know that virtual and hybrid events offer a wide range of opportunities. In your experience, what are some of the main positive things that come from hosting virtual and hybrid events?
John: Above all, I think the most positive change has been accessibility of events. And that takes on a number of forms. The first is that, again, as we talked about before, those people that don't feel comfortable gathering and people in person can easily access those events and still participate in the book launch, even participate in the Q&A. We have a live chat for most of our events as well, which we monitor throughout the evening. So, if there is a Q&A, those physically present as well as those online can both participate.
As well, I would say that also permits for people who wouldn't necessarily be able to gather in the past to join us. So not only have we been able to expand the reach of our events somewhat, they're now more national or international than they ever have been. But also we found, for instance, if a local author is launching a book and has family members located elsewhere, there is this glorious sense of kind of being able to expand the community because family members who previously wouldn't have been able to join, friends in far-flung places can now join, participate, they can offer comments, they can talk, and they can view it in real-time without having to worry about travelling to the city. So, I guess that's been a significant positive for us.
One of the other amazing things about it has been... and this is more an after-effect that we hadn't necessarily considered when we started out is the fact that we're now creating an archive of these events. So, on our YouTube channel, all these launch videos are made available. And as a result, some authors, particularly those from the Winnipeg region who may not be as represented in media now have, for instance, feature interviews with themselves that are still recorded and available for people to watch. So that's been a really positive thing because all the events are no longer as ephemeral as they once were. And a part of me really loves the ephemerality of an event, where you're actually in a space and there's that feel, and it's difficult to replicate that, and certainly, the virtual experience doesn't replace that. But on the other hand, it also permits for other people to share in those evenings, whereas they might not have been able to previously.
Nataly: Yeah, I completely agree. And I was wondering about how interactive the live streaming was, and I am so glad to hear that people watching from home can still participate and send their questions in and feel connected and engaged, which I think it's one of the very difficult things of most virtual events. Moving to the online space, as we were talking just now, how events become more accessible, especially for... Well, not especially but, you know, like, including for people with disabilities in the community. Are there any other steps, like, you know, like not even thinking exclusively about the online space that you're taking to, you know, make your events as accessible and as equitable as possible?
John: Possibly. We have the benefit of being a very large store in terms of footprint and in terms of space for events as well. So the great thing about our physical spaces is that they always have been accessible. So there is always room for folks with wheelchairs and other people who need particular accommodations within the space. We're always very happy to do so.
We are in an older building. So one of our priorities whenever the opportunity for innovations arises, and as I think a lot of people listening will well know, when you're operating with landlords and operating within particular building restrictions, that can sometimes be complicated to do. But that's always been our priority whenever we're renovating the space is always to try to make it as accessible as humanly possible.
And we're also open to feedback and really appreciate it, too. So, I know a lot of the choices and a lot of the decisions that we made over the last little while had been directly a result of just hearing from our customers, hearing from our attendees as to what better way we can accommodate them. And often, it's something that we just necessarily haven't thought of that is a really easy fix. So, I think working and being open to that feedback is so valuable.
In terms of the online space, one of the really positive things, even though it isn't entirely ideal, is also the fact that all of our videos do have the ability, you can view them with automatically generated subtitles. So, while it may not necessarily be the most ideally coherent situation in the world, it does at least provide that option. And so we're working to try to make our events as accessible as possible and trying to basically move in that direction as much as we can.
Nataly: Thank you, thank you. And sort of related to this, I was also wondering about some of the challenges that you and your team faced when you started going, you know, like, virtual. I think that at least I can talk from our own experience when we had to switch from what, you know, we were planning —this big Tech Forum 2020 in person, we had talked about the food, you know, like, we had everything ready, and then boom, the pandemic was here. And we had to figure out like, "Okay, what are we gonna do?" Right? And switching to virtual was a bit of a challenge. So, I wanna know, was it a challenge for all of you? What was more challenging? Were there, like, any unexpected things that you had to sort of, like, figure out while you were doing your events?
John: The answer to everything is yes. So, previously, when we had been hosting events in the store, I am not a tech person at all. And so essentially, the limits of my expertise were the ability to plug microphones into a soundboard and crank the volume up to make sure that everybody could hear and that was essentially it. So, when we realized that we were going to be going virtually, we had never experimented with online events to start, let alone the idea of broadcasting a physical event out. So it was a massive period of trial and error. And luckily, we did have that period of time where we were purely online, which allowed us to become a little bit more comfortable with that technology first before we started to directly apply that to the physical space.
And so much of that can be credited to my colleague, Joanna Graham, who runs our community classroom. We also have an educational program that runs here at the store. So, I was able to work very closely with Joanna to basically determine how best to broadcast in my case events and live conversations, and in her case, the classes that take place within our community classroom.
So, it was a real team effort, which was wonderful and helped us both troubleshoot as much as humanly possible because we both had different requirements. But even then, when we actually went live, it was very tentative, at first, and we are growing more and more comfortable with the software. But I think one of the biggest challenges was learning not to try to do everything. And so at first, we thought, "Oh, well, we can just have this incredibly professional setup, we can run everything through a sound mixer, we can do all these things," and then realize very quickly that, well, when there's one person, myself, executing an event, that the reality kind of pushes back against that quite dramatically.
So, I think a lot of it was a process of building up and then stripping away more than anything else to realize that we could get down to this core way of actually putting the events out there in as straightforward and streamlined way as possible. So, I think it was the streamlining that was the biggest challenge that is after actually figuring out how to do it in the first place.
Nataly: Can you tell us about, like, how do you measure the success of your events? Is it according to the number of books that you sell during the event or prior? Is it registration numbers? Is it how many views the recordings get? What's your guideline to say like, "Okay, yeah, this was a successful event"?
John: I don't think we have an official guideline necessarily. And we always talk about how to measure success in very different ways. And almost every event has a different measure of success. So, as a result, what we've mostly been doing is judging success as the entirety of a season rather than as individual one-offs because we have found that there is a cumulative impact when we look back at all the events in total.
So, part of it is certainly based on sales, part of it is naturally based on people actually viewing or taking in or attending the event, one of those, if you hold an event and nobody comes, did an event actually take place? But I would say, yeah, we wanna make sure that we've certainly sold enough books to make it all worthwhile. And that's the ultimate goal is just that books have found their ways into the hands of readers one way or another, whether that's at the event itself, whether that's as a result of the event, whether that's as part of the promotion in the lead-up.
It's not necessarily bums and chairs all the time because the glorious thing about, again, the YouTube thing is that we found that people are discovering these videos later. And so it's almost giving a longer life to some of these titles and a longer life to the events than they necessarily had previously. So, that's also been really interesting to see and has caused us to have to kind of tweak what we view as a successful event in general.
Basically, we think that we're successful, ultimately, if we're staying interesting, if our offerings continue to be relatively engaging, if people seem to be interested in what we have to offer. And so again, streamlining the events has really allowed us to think about what that means and how we can best actually do that within our community and beyond. We need to ensure that we're staying current, too, that all of our books are newer titles, that we're not just rehashing the topics or things like that.
And we also wanna make sure that we're finding ways to learn. So, also, just learning from the season is a measure of success in our own minds as well because it allows us to really kind of recalibrate and determine how we can do things better in the future. So, it's very nebulous, and I wish I had just a very specific criteria of success that I could pass along. But it is more just evaluation of all these jumbled materials as we try to bring them together into a solid whole.
Nataly: Another thing that we were thinking about when we were preparing these questions for the podcast is about the community piece, I feel that pre-COVID events were one of the main ways to attract new people to your bookstore to build that awareness that you were there, that you sell books, that you have books about, you know, from these authors. So do you think that events still play that role around building community and awareness? Do you think that that's still true?
John: Oh, very much so, I would say. I think events were really essential for the continuance of community through the pandemic when we were virtual only, the fact that we were able to gather in a virtual space and at least then just look at the list of attendees and realize, "Oh, all these people are still out there, these people are still here, were able to gather in some way or other." I think that was a really reassuring part of those slightly darker days.
And then when we did actually move back to a hybrid and more in-person model, there was just this incredible sense of relief of seeing communities start to gather again. And so as a result, you can see those connections get forged. And one of the things that I missed when we were unable to gather is seeing exactly that, where there was an event, but there was also everything surrounding the event, the community that gets built, the conversations that happen, the meetings that take place in the store.
There is something really energizing about an event where you actually see everybody engaging with this act of creation, and then immediately getting to discuss that with the people around them. So, I think that was so missing from the online experience, a chat can only go so far and actually approximating that. And so seeing that community start to knit back together, I think events played a very vital part in that, which is really exciting to see.
It's also very crucial for again, as I mentioned, extending our reach above and beyond just Winnipeg. We've been able to build community even further. So, the fact that we were able to have events that were just attended by people elsewhere in the world was really excellent. But then also just in terms of providing, like, a central gathering location for the writing community, I think that was really key as well because the most important thing we as a community can do is celebrate our accomplishment. And I think launches play such a key part in that, and from an authorial and creative standpoint, can be very inspiring. And so it's great to be able to see that take place and to play, you know, a humble part in actually bringing those evenings together. That aspect of it is really, really exciting.
And also, I'd say one of the most energizing things, too, is those events where you have an author come into the store, and you see this entirely new group of people that you haven't seen actually gather within your space. And so you're extending your community outwards, and also welcoming people in simultaneously. And that was something that I think was really nice because that's a lot more difficult to do virtually. Whereas in person, if people are actually making the trip down to your space and engaging with it for the first time, there are a few things that are more rewarding than the feeling of having accomplished that in a way.
Nataly: What do you think it's gonna happen within the next few years? How do you think events will look like in the publishing context in the next few years?
John: That is an interesting question that I don't honestly have an answer to at the moment. I'd say there's a momentum that I think we can kind of feel in the approach to events that publishers are certainly taking. And I think there's also been a kind of a recalibration of what is expected both of authors and publishers and bookstores. So I think all the roles have shifted in an interesting way. And it's gonna be intriguing to see how that necessarily grows.
As I kind of mentioned, there's been a bit of telescoping in terms of what events actually take place in the first time. And while people are trying to not necessarily cut down, I think people are really trying to prioritize. So, in a way, if there is, again, a positive thing this resulted from some dire circumstances, it's that I think we've gotten very much into a habit or routine in a way. And so this has offered us an opportunity to kind of shake things up a little bit to determine what actually works best for everybody involved to the point where we're actually exploring exciting new avenues, we can take advantage of that momentum.
And there's also the opportunity for ... I think a lot more people have grown skilled at building a kind of public profile because there's been a necessity involved with that over the last little while, where if an author wanted to get the word off the books, they had to put more effort into that. And I don't know whether or not that's a positive or a negative aspect of it, it's always a little bit ... it feels bad to try to force somebody who is so used to the solitary work of creation to appear on a public platform.
So, it'll be interesting to see how that shifts and the support for authors as well shift as well within the industry to the point where hopefully everybody is at a point where they're not only being supported by the people that are behind them, that are working to get their work out in front of other people, but also that we are working together to try to create innovative new ways to showcase that that really takes full advantage of all these new tools that we've gathered as well.
Nataly: Thank you so much, John. Thank you for your time. Seriously, we appreciate your insight. There's nothing like talking to someone who's actually doing this stuff in real life. I was looking at the website, and you have a bunch of events coming up. That must be a lot of work, but very rewarding, I hope.
John: Oh, it most certainly is. Absolutely.
Nataly: Before I go, I’d like to take a moment to acknowledge that BookNet Canada’s physical office is upon the traditional territories of the Mississaugas of the Credit, Anishinaabe, Haudenosaunee, and Wendat Indigenous Peoples, the original nations of the land we now call Toronto. BookNet’s operations are currently remote and our staff contributes their work from these traditional territories, as well as those of the Mi’kmaq People, from the lands we now call Beeton, Brampton, Guelph, Halifax, and Vaughan. We encourage you to visit the native-land.ca website to learn more about the peoples whose land you are listening from today. Moreover, BookNet endorses the Calls to Action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada and supports an ongoing shift from gatekeeping to spacemaking in the book industry.
The book industry has long been an industry of gatekeeping. Anyone who works at any stage of the book supply chain carries a responsibility to serve readers by publishing, promoting, and supplying works that represent the wide extent of human experiences and identities in all its complicated intersectionality. We, at BookNet, are committed to working with our partners in the industry as we move towards a framework that supports "spacemaking," which ensures that marginalized creators and professionals all have the opportunity to contribute, work, and lead. We hope that our work, including this podcast, helps to create an environment that supports that shift. We'd also like to acknowledge the Government of Canada for their financial support through the Canada Book Fund. And of course, thanks to you for listening.
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