Kaya Thomas, creator of the app We Read Too, joins BookNet on the podcast this month. While still in her undergrad at Dartmouth College, Kaya developed her first app: We Read Too, a book resource application that showcases a directory of hundreds of children's and young adult fiction books written by and for people of colour, which contains over 600 books and has over 4,000 downloads. Kaya has held software engineering internships at Time Inc. and Intuit working on mobile applications. She was a CODE2040 2015 Fellow and is a technical volunteer mentor for Black Girls Code. For her work in education and technology, Kaya was recently honoured by First Lady Michelle Obama at the 2015 Black Girls Rock Awards. She joins us to talk about her favourite books, breaking into coding, and diversifying the publishing industry
(Scroll down for a transcript of the conversation.)
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Transcript
Krista Mitchell: Hello, everyone and welcome to BookNet's Podcast. I'm Krista Mitchell, the Marketing Associate here at BookNet Canada. Joining us this month is Kaya Thomas, creator of the app, We Read Too, a book resource application that showcases a directory of hundreds of children's and young adult fiction books written by and for people of colour. Currently, We Read Too's directory contains over 600 books and the app has over 4,000 downloads. Kaya is a junior at Dartmouth College, where she majors in computer science and has held software engineering internships at Time Inc. and Intuit working on mobile applications. She is a technical volunteer mentor for Black Girls Code and has her own YouTube channel. For her work in education and technology, Kaya was recently honoured by First Lady Michelle Obama at the 2015 Black Girls Rock Awards. Thank you for joining us today, Kaya. Why don't you start by telling us a little about your app, We Read Too?
Kaya Thomas: Of course. So I'll start off with the origin story for We Read Too. It really goes back to when I was in high school, I was at the point where I was now, you know, getting older, and I was picking up my own books, I'm at the library and I started to notice that a lot of the characters in the books that I was reading weren't described to look like me. And what really was weird is the few books that I did find in the library that had black characters they were very tragic stories, unlike the other books that I was reading, which was very uplifting, funny, romantic, usually success stories, or just really light fiction. And I couldn't find that with characters that looked like me or described to look like me. So I wished that there was some type of resource that I could easily find, you know, a bunch of fiction books to read where the characters described looked like me, and the stories were, you know, uplifting or light or, you know, just regular young adult fiction without having these tragic plotlines to it.
And I figured that other young people of colour probably would want the same thing, especially if they love to read. And so why isn't there a place where black, Latino, Native American, or Asian teenagers or kids can find books where there are characters like them. And so I wished that there was something like that, but I didn't know how to create it. I didn't know about coding, I didn't know about computer science. So it was kind of just an idea at the back of my mind. It wasn't until I got to college and when I actually found out about computer science that I realized that now I can bring my idea to life and I had the tools to do so. So I started working on We Read Too as an iPhone app because I figured it would be the best way for easily people if they're in the library or the bookstore to, you know, look through the directory and be able to find books to check out or to buy that were related to them.
And when I started We Read Too I collected all the books manually. So I just really looked online, searched for weeks to find all the fiction books that I could that were featuring black, Latino, Asian, and Native American characters and were written by authors of the same ethnic background. And so I collected and found about 300 books to start off. And in the actual app when I launched in August 2014 there's a suggestions feature. So I figured through the suggestions feature users could suggest books that they know about, that they want to see in the application and that way it could lessen a bit of the manual work that comes with searching for the books. And so since August 2014, the directory has grown from 300 books to over 600 books. So it's been great, but I also have had to manually go through the suggestions and approve them so that I can put them in the app to make sure that they fit the mission of the app. And that's really the origin story for We Read Too.
Krista: Do you think that there could be like an easier way that publishers can tag their books so that it would aid discoverability for people who are looking very specifically for books about people of colour or books about like mental health issues or LGBTQ issues? Do you think keywords could help in that?
Kaya: Oh, I think keywords would help immensely. And especially I think, you know, keywords can help for the topic of the book so you know, "Okay, this book features, you know, characters of colour, a black character, an Asian character, or Aboriginal characters," etc. But then also for the authors, I think it's important at least for my mission too because authors of colour often have a hard time marketing their books as well and a hard time getting their books out there. So if they're tagged as well, if the authors are tagged that can also be very helpful. So the thing is, you know, in my search you'll find here and there one blog post here, one Goodreads list here, you know, 100 black authors, 100 Asian authors, but it's so disjointed. It's also the credibility there, you don't know, you don't have the credibility there. A lot of times you don't know if the author themselves is coming from the background that they're writing about because there are white authors who write characters of colour. So I think it will be so much easier to find these types of books if the tagging was more available, and especially on the developer side, if there was, you know, credible tagging from the actual publishers that I could just grab from that would make it much easier for developing...
Krista: That's true. We do have like a Canadian author signifier I know in our data where publishers can go through and like tag their authors, specifically as Canadian, which makes aggregators like All Lit Up, to be able to grab those authors easier. So maybe if we implemented something like that for more diverse authors, that would really help projects like We Read Too.
Kaya: Exactly.
Krista: I wonder what the process behind implementing that would be like.
Kaya: Yeah. It would probably take a long time to implement that.
Krista: That's true.
Kaya: Yeah. But I think it's something that is important and especially because, you know, especially children's literature. Children's literature is so important. And it's so important for children to be exposed to not only literature where they feel represented, but also literature where they're reading about different backgrounds. And that's one thing too that's important to me that I want to point out is that We Read Too isn't just for, you know, people of ethnic backgrounds. It's literally for everyone because I think it's important for all youth to be exposed to literature where the characters look like them but also where they don't look like them so they get to learn about different cultures and different backgrounds.
Krista: I agree.
Kaya: Exactly. Especially it helps you understand that there are other people, different people in the world. It helps you build empathy.
Krista: Yeah, it helps you understand the actual world that we live in that there are so many different people out there that live differently than you and believe different things than you. And it's fascinating to like learn all of their stories and important for inclusion and growing up to be a well-rounded person, I think.
Kaya: Exactly.
Krista: Is that why you chose to focus on children's and young adult literature in We Read Too? Do you plan on expanding to adult books?
Kaya: Yeah, I do in the future plan on expanding to adult books but I really...That's why I really wanted to focus on children's literature and because it was a problem that I felt really, you know, as a young person. And I'm sure and I've spoken to parents and educators who have used We Read Too and really felt like, "Wow. Okay. This is great. You know, I can now find books for my child, I can find books for my cousin, my niece, I can find books for my students." So it's not necessarily something that I expect, you know, five-year-old kids to be using but I wanted it to be for young people so that they can see that these books exist. And I do want to expand to adult literature in the near future. It's just that I know that adults have more capability to find these books than necessarily young people might.
Krista: Yeah. They have more patience to hunt down things on the internet. But this is, like you said, be a great resource for teachers and librarians who just really want to find more titles to expose children to and more different kinds of authors.
Kaya: Exactly.
Krista: If they don't know it exists, they need to know. And you have over 4,000 downloads, is that correct?
Kaya: Yeah. I have and it's been incredible. Because, you know, when I first launched this, this was my first, you know, dive into app development and coding and to tech and I really didn't know what the response was going to be. And I really just hoped that it would maybe help a couple of people. I didn't think of thousands using it or downloading it.
Krista: Oh, that's beautiful. Thousands is amazing. That's huge. And so you said this is your first app, is that correct?
Kaya: Yes, this is my first app that I ever built. And I built it while I was learning app development on my job. I was working as an intern, a mobile development intern. And so I was learning mobile development. And so I would go home and work on We Read Too. And I think it was a really great experience for me because learning coding to me has been really a vehicle. It's a tool for me to try to solve problems that I see using technology and I think it's such a creative process. And so doing this and creating We Read Too has really created and grown my love for coding and technology.
Krista: How did you get into computer science because you're a third-year at Dartmouth? So you haven't even graduated yet and you're already making these amazing apps. Like what brought you to computer science?
Kaya: It was completely random and completely on a whim really. After my first term at Dartmouth, I was in winter break and I was thinking about changing my major. When I got to Dartmouth, I was thinking about being an environmental engineering major. But after my first time, I was thinking, "Okay. Maybe I'll try a different major." I just didn't know what. And I had came across a TED Talk by Kimberly Bryant, the founder of Black Girls Code, and she was talking about computer science and how important it is, and how more people of colour need to enter the industry and how many jobs are gonna be available. And I was just like, "How did I not know about this and why isn't everyone talking about this?" And so I just, you know, Googled how to learn how to code and Code Academy came up. So I took their six-week free Python course. And from there, I just really loved it. And I signed up for computer science courses at Dartmouth and been hooked ever since.
Krista: That's great. I've tried these Code Academy so many times, and I don't have the patience to keep going with it. Obviously, coding is not my calling but it seems to be yours for sure. Do you have any role models that you really look up to in the tech industry? Because I know that technology kind of like publishing is not really as diverse as it could be. And I'm just wondering if you have any role models that you can point to other young girls who want to get into coding?
Kaya: Oh, I definitely do. Kimberly Bryant, who I mentioned, is a great role model and mentor to me. And she's not a coder herself. She was in the bioengineering and biotech industry before she started Black Girls Code. But I think she's a great role model to show the impact that you can make in the industry doing non-profit work. Engineers who inspire me, Erica Baker, is a really great engineer at Slack. And she really inspires me and she is always speaking her mind but she also gets great development work done. And I think that that's so important. And I think we need to really shout out more women who are in the tech industry now so that we can show young women and girls that, "Hey, look, you have people to look up to." Because a lot of the talk about diversity is focused on the low numbers, which is important to acknowledge but then don't forget that those numbers represent actual people that need to be retained and need to be supported in the industry. And so I think we need to uplift those people who are part of those low statistics.
Krista: I agree. We have the same sort of problem in the publishing industry where recently Lee & Low, a publisher, released a baseline study about diversity, and we found that, to no one's real shock, that publishing was predominantly, like, white women. And other voices have sort of not gotten to a place where they can really express their opinions or be heard or reach the audiences that they want to reach to. Do you have any advice for publishing as an industry on how they can reach audiences of colour?
Kaya: A couple of things are a lot of time I think why industries end up excluding because there are a lot of reasons why they end up excluding different folks. But I think a lot of it is when we have idea of culture fit, right, well, this is the culture that we've created in our industry. And if you don't necessarily fit into that culture, you don't necessarily belong. And I think that really needs to be addressed. So if I were to talk to the publishing industry, I would say that you need to really confront your own culture and see how your culture is excluding people who are not from your same background and see how your culture is making people feel like they don't belong if they were to get in the industry because I think a lot of it is you can hire folks to come into the industry, but are they going to stay? Are they going to stay there? Are they going to feel like that they're welcomed? Are they going to feel like it's a place where they can be themselves and be authentic? So I think that's really important to confront your industry and company cultures.
Krista: I thought a really interesting correlation from that study was that the diversity statistics really mirrored the same as the authors being published. So predominantly, you know, white. Whereas African American or black people were really underrepresented in both people who work in the publishing industry and authors, especially for children. And so we need more people to recognize that these stories are for everyone, not just, like, one target audience, and that's why the crossover audience exists. But what sort of advice would you have for reaching a broader audience?
Kaya: I think a lot of it is reaching the communities. So figuring out who has access to these communities, because if you're an industry that is pretty much homogenous, you're not going to have access to a lot of these communities or you're not going to know people in these communities. And that's all a lot of times ... a lot of industries are about networking, it's about who you know. So if you're an author and you know a bunch of publishers, chances are you're probably going to get published. But if you're an author who doesn't have access to any publishers, you don't know any publishers, you don't know how to get published, it's going to be much harder for you to make that step.
So I think a lot of it is about reaching communities where they have organizations full of authors of colour or full of young people who are interested in writing, you know, reach people who are doing fellowships that are related to inclusion and diversity. And there are a lot of these things out there. And you have to really do the work of going into the communities and reaching people and seeing how to really reach them and seeing what their community needs. It's not about going to the community and doing what you think is right in terms of marketing or outreach, but really about what the community needs and building that relationship and having that real conversation.
Krista: What do you think about in libraries, how can we make diverse books more visible for everyone?
Kaya: Oh, yeah, I love libraries. It's interesting, now that I'm older, I hope young kids are still going to the libraries. I think they are. I hope they are. And I think with libraries, especially as a librarian, I really do think that it's your job to get more books that have varying characters and varying different people out there. And I think a couple of ways to do that is the displays. The library displays are actually really important. Like when you go to the library, and you see on top of the bookshelf the displays what books are displayed there are what books that they're seeing, what books the kids are seeing and what books that people are going to be like, "Oh, maybe I should check that out." So putting different types of books and different books with varying characters on the displays is also important.
And another thing where you can really reach kids is the summer programs. A lot of libraries have summer reading programs, summer reading competitions. So on your list for the summer reading programs or competitions and on the booklist that you create, libraries create booklists all the time, make sure that you have books that all the books are not having the same type of characters that were from the same type of backgrounds, make sure that you're varying it. And I think it takes work but hopefully with resources like We Read Too and with We Read Too, you know, there's easier access to know what these books are. Because, like I said, sometimes you don't know what the books are. And so doing the work to access the books and then making them accessible to everyone in the library as well.
Krista: That's such a good point. I used to love summer reading programs when I was a kid. I found some of my favourite books through summer reading programs. What kind of books did you like to read when you were a kid?
Kaya: So I loved all type of books. Fiction was really, you know, my favourite. Some of my favourite series growing up, "A Series of Unfortunate Events" was like my favourite, absolute favourite one, my absolute favourite series and I actually met Lemony Snicket, which was like...
Krista: Oh, really? That's awesome.
Kaya: Yeah. It was really, really crazy. He came to Barnes and Noble to do a book signing and so I got to meet him, and that was amazing. And I really was into spy series. So there was a bunch of like spy and like cracking hidden codes, Artemis Fowl, and there were a bunch of like spy series and things that I really liked. I love reading series. So if there was like five, six books, I was really into that. And, yeah, I was always an avid reader. And I think that was partly because my dad and my mom really instilled in me the importance of reading and they always got me books and everything. Me and my dad would go to Barnes and Nobles like every weekend and pick out a book or two. And so it was instilled in me at a young age. So I'm always like reading all different types of books.
Krista: Do you find now that, I feel I'm gonna sound really old when I say this, with the Internet do you find that bookstores are no longer the gateways to book for you as much? You said you used to go with your dad to Barnes and Noble all the time. Do you find that that has lessened now that you can sort of like do a Google search and find authors of colour easier on the internet than you would in a bookstore?
Kaya: Yeah. Unfortunately, I would have to say yes. And that saddens me because I think there is a certain experience you get going to a bookstore. I still love going to the bookstore and like searching the bookshelves. It's like really exciting for me. And I know a lot of readers feel this way. It's just like when you go to a bookstore, it can just feel like home and you're just like, "Oh, there's so many books." But, yes, I think with the introduction of technology and the internet, it's much easier to just buy a book online, buy an ebook. Although I still like reading physical books. I do read ebooks sometimes. And so I think it's easier and it presents a certain amount of access that not everyone has. But I think bookstores are still important and I hope that experience never goes away.
Krista: And I think this is something important for retailers to hear too that they can recapture those audiences by putting in an effort to create displays like you said at the library that totally works at retailers too to create diverse book displays and you can pull back in the audience that you might be losing to the internet.
Kaya: Exactly.
Krista: When you're online do you spend any time following movements like We Need Diverse Books or we also have one in Canada called Diverse CanLit? Do you get involved with those movements?
Kaya: Yeah. So interestingly enough, I am familiar with Diverse CanLit because I follow some Canadians on Twitter and they participate in that conversation a lot.
Krista: Yes. We're very passionate about it.
Kaya: Yeah. And so I do. I do follow those moments online. We Need Diverse Books is a great one and I really like the work that they're doing. And so, yes, I definitely follow those online. And I would love to, you know, collaborate and see how I can work with those organizations and movements in regards to We Read Too. Because I think that there still is...I still see all the time articles, "Ten books by people of colour," or, "Here's 20 books by Latino authors for children." And although I love these types of articles I still think that there should be a hub where all the books are together and you don't just get like maybe 20 here or there. You should be able to have enough books to read for a lifetime that are by all different types of authors.
Krista: And how do you think, because I know that some publishers have started, like, offering scholarships...scholarships might not be the right word but they will commit to publishing at least three books by authors of colour per year, how do you feel about programs like that?
Kaya: Well, I think those programs are great to give more people access into the industry because like I said if you don't have a network full of people who are in the industry, it's going to be really hard for you to get out there and get your name out there. So I think those are important. I think that although those are important there also has to be the conversation of, "All right. Well, we need to be broader and expand this, right. Why does it just have to be three or why does it have to be 10?" Like, it should be, "Okay. We're going to publish 30% or we're going to publish 50%." It should be bigger I think. And it should be more about creating a network and creating access for more people to get in and to get in the industry rather than just taking a couple and dropping them in and saying, "Okay. We did our work," because the work is not done. You have to do way more than that.
Krista: It's so hard to find things that reflect real-life experience. I know personally, I'm always trying to find books that feature asexual characters in a way that's realistic and authentic and doesn't feel like, "Oh, we're just dealing about this as like a problem like an issues books." Instead, like you said earlier, like you want to read about other like adventure stories with these characters or science fiction stories with these characters just there the way they are in real life, instead of it always having to center around some sort of issue like teen pregnancy or...
Kaya: Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's so important. It's like these issue books are...because, you know, the issue books are good as well because there are young people who go through these problems and I think the books they're good to be there. But we need more books with just the character being a regular person.
Krista: We need a good balance of that.
Kaya: I mean, we got to realize that everyone is so multifaceted. We all have such complex personalities and we need books to reflect this as well. You know, I want to read a book where there's like a nerdy black girl who goes to college and she's discovering herself and she's living her life. Like I would love to read a book like that.
Krista: Oh, that sounds amazing. You should consider writing in your spare time if you ever have a few.
Kaya: Yeah. And so I think that these books need to exist more. Like you said, it doesn't need to just be issue books because when you just have issue books it makes it seem like that's our whole lives like, yes, that's a part of our lives but we're also regular people.
Krista: You also have a YouTube channel, don't you?
Kaya: Yes, I do have a YouTube channel called "With Kaya." It's currently on hiatus but I created it because there were really few YouTube channels where there were women at all talking about coding and then even fewer where there was a woman of colour talking about coding or technology or programming. And so I figured that there needs to be some face out there. There's one channel, Adria Richards, who is really great in the technology industry and technology space. And so she has a YouTube channel where she's talking about all technical things. And so I looked up to her and I said, "Okay. Well, let me just create this channel so that I can get my face out there and show other," you know, if there's maybe other young girls of colour who come across it maybe they'll think, "Oh, like, maybe I should try coding?" Or maybe they'll just feel more comfortable trying it out being able to see that, "Oh, well, there's someone who looks like me on YouTube talking about this." So that was my really intention for creating it.
Krista: I watched a few of your videos. You actually make coding seem less intimidating. I was like, "Maybe I could figure this out eventually."
Kaya: Awesome. That's definitely my goal and it's interesting because my hope for it is really anyone who's underrepresented in coding so whether that's gender, ethnicity, age, ability, whoever, I just want them to maybe think, like you said, be less intimidated by it, see it and be less intimidated by it and say, "Okay. Well, maybe if she's talking about, like, how she struggled through this, or how she just came across this and gave it a try that I could do the same thing." I'm not claiming to be an expert because I'm not an expert at all. But I really want to be able to just show like, "Hey, I'm learning this, I'm trying it out. I've been able to create things and you could do the same thing."
Krista: You met Michelle Obama, is that right?
Kaya: Yes, that is correct. I did meet the First Lady last March, so about a year ago, and it was a life-changing experience. But really for me it really represented a kind of full-circle moment because when we were honoured by her, it was me and two other young women, when we were honoured by her, she was talking about her fears, her doubts, the things that she had to overcome to get where she were, and I could so relate to what she was talking about and the doubts and the fears and everything. And it was just a full-circle moment to, you know, have the First Lady of the United States talking about all the hardships she's been through and similar issues that you've gone through and to have her acknowledge you and acknowledge that the work you've done it was just it was incredible. And for me, I really hope that other young women can see that and know that they can get to that same spot because I would have never in my whole life ever imagined that that would happen to me. So it was really incredible. And she was so genuine and so kind and she really cared and that was really great.
Krista: She's definitely like an important role model for women everywhere. I think she's just such an incredible lady.
Kaya: Right?
Krista: Thanks for joining us today, Kaya. Kaya is also going to be speaking at Tech Forum on April 1st. Her session "Tech is an Equalizer" will give publishers actionable takeaways on how they can better reach audiences of colour, so please don't miss it. To learn more about what we do, visit us at booknetcanada.ca. We gratefully acknowledge the financial support of the Government of Canada through the Canada book fund. And of course, thank you for listening. We'll see you next month.
